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We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#501
post #301
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that, if there is in fact a pipeline problem, that probably does not constitute a shift in responsibility away from the hiring company. Saying "you cannot expect to make things better than they are at the input of your pipe segment" is explicitly attempting to shift responsibility away from the hiring company. I simply disagree. I think a company is still largely responsible for the outcomes of its hiring…

Are you saying: 1) the input is not actually biased 2) the company is responsible for making the output less biased than the input (or produce an unbiased output from a biased input) 3) the company is responsible for making sure that they don’t cause the output to be more biased than the input, (but you are not saying that it is responsible for more than that) 3’) The same as 3, except that the amount of bias in the…

With my current understanding, I believe I can answer this one. It's #2. Specifically, your parenthetical comment in #2.

Bias exists and is a problem. It is worth spending additional resources to draw additional samples from the underrepresented population in order to offset that bias. With more samples from that population than the previous pipeline stage would provide if you sampled evenly, you can counter some of the bias without adjusting any standards of quality (capability) based on the population being sampled.

If you are a member of the overrepresented population, you will have a smaller chance of being hired with this intervention. But for someone who is hired, their skill level will be independent of what population they belong to. (Women will not be given an easier interview. They will be more likely to be offered an interview in the first place.)

Whether that is "fair" depends entirely on how you define fairness. This procedure stacks the odds against a man. Our current overall system stacks the odds against a woman. Both can legitimately complain about unfairness.

Thus, it's largely irrelevant that the percentages in earlier stages of the pipeline mean that there's no way for the overall balance can reach 50/50 through only later-stage interventions. Where did this magic 50% figure come from? The only point is to improve the percentage from where it is now. The issues that prevent achieving 50% are real, but don't prevent progress anywhere in the pipeline.

I imagine the additional costs of sampling more from a smaller population would rise dramatically the closer you try to push the outcome towards 50%. So companies will have to decide how much they're willing to invest. Fortunately, there is still real value in pushing beyond the status quo even if you don't get to 50%.

(More generally, the magic number is not always 50%. It's the proportion of the URM in the overall population. 50% is roughly the female part of the population in areas advanced enough to have these sorts of jobs available.)

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#502

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

> If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representation?

I really thought it was the accepted fact and a starting point of all the discussions on this subject, that the issue is the pool of candidate.

Myself I recently tried to hire a developer and that’s a reality that there is nearly no female candidates. And I‘m not restricting it to CS degree.

I don’t understand how it’s not obvious that what can be done at the hiring process is completely marginal. There is no politics here.

The politics is how much we try to aim for 50% candidates (education, training...)

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I hear statements like that, I always wonder if they try to hire 2% pedophiles, too. About 2% of people in the real world are supposed to be pedophiles, so if they want to reflect the real world, they should aim to hire them.

arguing in bad faith seems unnecessary when there's so much authentically wrong with their view

I don't see that as bad faith. Companies have weird diversity goals to do with physical features of their bodies and sexual preferences. Pedophiles are just part of that. They happen to be a marginalized group, but that's the thing about being marginalized, you get pushed to the margins and not advocated for by big companies and popular blogs.

Perhaps if you went back to the days of women's liberation and somebody said "what next, gays?" they'd get dismissed too. That might be right, but it's possible they really saw it as a serious issue before its time.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#504
post #3

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

So I'm ready for the downvotes, but its worth it. I don't think it is generally good to look for divisions and more ways to separate from the whole. I don't know if that is because you're out somewhere in super woke SF or similar but you've already used terms like "LatinX" and "person of color" like someone who is already woke but maybe stop for a sec? Why don't you see yourself as a person who likes CS/tech and like…

>>>Also, seriously wtf is LatinX? Seriously.

As another minority I also looked at the poster's usage of LatinX unironically with surprise, and drew similar conclusions about their "wokeness".

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/98-of-hispanics-and-...

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a drop out too and have made my way to manager where I find myself training juniors many of which also do not have degrees. Unfortunately it is night and day between the ones who do have degrees and those that don’t. At this point I am now strongly recommending cs degrees to anyone seeking a career in programming because the theories do come up in any serious work, particularly full stack engineers who must have…

As a person without a CS education but with 30 years of industry experience, including several of The Bigs, I urge young people to get an education in anything but CS. The number of CS degree holders, even the masters and doctors, who struggle with statistics, linear algebra, or even thermodynamics and basic accounting is pretty dispiriting. Get an education and learn to program computers. Two separate things in my h…

Do you think other degrees, outside of maths or physics maybe, makes you better at the things you listed? It seems unlikely to me, and the fact people struggle with this is more representative of the general population than of the degree itself I would say.

It might depend on how the degree is taught I guess, mine had very little actual programming.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#506
post #222

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I don't have a problem with most of my coworkers (male and female) being Asian. In fact, I prefer it. I'm not Asian, but the majority of my friends, classmates, and coworkers throughout my life have been, and that continues even now during my career in tech. Whenever I see anything related to affirmative action being discussed nowadays, I think that it's only a matter of…

One thing I see few people discuss in terms of Asian and affirmative action, is that the immigration system overwhelmingly selects the wealthy, smart or other desirable qualities for all immigrants. And due to historical reasons like Chinese Exclusion Act, majority Asians in America had to go through those filters, or their parents had to. Of course those people are going to succeed more than the average Americans wh…

They may bring down the average somewhat, but all the East Asians in the world do have a higher average IQ than all the white people in the world. So random unmotivated Asians (I presume you don't include Indians) are still likely to perform better than random unmotivated Americans.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#507
A funnel representation would be clearer.

If you start with 50% women at age 0, which steps are leaking the most? High school, university, company interviews, people leaving companies/switching careers?

I think the answer is that many of these steps are losing women in the process.

But in my opinion, companies are only responsible for: hiring fairly, retaining fairly, promoting fairly.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#508
post #222

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I don't have a problem with most of my coworkers (male and female) being Asian. In fact, I prefer it. I'm not Asian, but the majority of my friends, classmates, and coworkers throughout my life have been, and that continues even now during my career in tech. Whenever I see anything related to affirmative action being discussed nowadays, I think that it's only a matter of…

> I think that it's only a matter of time until Asian women are treated the same way as Asian men. Once you've managed to close the gender gap in engineering, you have a new problem to deal with -- a lack of diversity among women engineers in regards to race and socio-economic class. The blanket catch-all term "Asian" is not doing this conversation any favors. You assert a monoculture, but Asia is a huge region with…

If we can't say "Asian" then let's also stop saying "black" and "white".

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#509
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you, but such smart and resourceful companies could do something about it. They are not powerless. Companies used to train internally - watch an older TV show (or even something like Better Call Saul) and see how many characters "worked their way up from the mail room". The death of company loyalty goes both ways but I'm sure it can be mended with some effort. Where I work one of the better pro…

> Companies used to train internally Please no. Japan is that way. Japan pays programmers $20k to start, no better than working fast food. Their salaries go up to $60k at the top end at most big Japanese companies and they have the attitude that anyone over 35 is too old to code. I feel the fact they hire grads with zero experience is one of the reasons. Why pay someone $$$ if they can't actually do the job yet? Conv…

Funny scene I'm translating from French (maybe it comes from the other side of the Atlantic, I don't remember when I read/heard it):

CEO : « We should train our workers. »

CFO : « It will be expensive and what do we do if we train them and they leave ? »

CEO : « What do we do if we don't and they stay ? »

Finally I think the parable is initially french, as it's harder to fire people just for lack of training here.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#510

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

The whole point of the article is that restricting your hiring pool to only CS graduates is a bad pattern and you should consider other qualities instead so saying only 18% of CS graduates are female misses the point. Having no CS degree myself and excelling in a top 10 company I agree with this sentiment, especially seeing the epidemic of “over leveling” the small pool of CS graduates occurring. I’d rather work with…

I'd like to see some proof that there's a large pool of competent software engineers without any degrees (or CS degrees) just waiting to be hired.

Additionally, if you meant specifically without CS degrees, I think a lot of companies accept unrelated degrees + experience.

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