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Why is modern web development so complicated?

vrk.dev

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Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#501
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed with PostgreSQL. But I'd go with Laravel rather than Django or Rails. More modern, more features, active development and constant new features are guaranteed for Laravel, in addition to growing community and abundance of learning resources.

Five years ago, I decided I was never going to touch PHP ever again. I have been much happier professionally since that day.

I don’t know. I think I’d rather touch Symfony than Rails at the moment.

And both probably beat out Node.js

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#502

I wonder what drove this needless and pretentious complexity ? The javascript ecosystem feels fragile and hacky, which spell bad prospects for its long term survival. It's more likely that jquery and PHP will survive after 2025 than any of the javascript tools mentioned in the article. Was it the inflow of too many mediocre graduates that needed help preventing themselves from writing buggy programs? The social credi…

> I wonder what drove this needless and pretentious complexity ?

> Was it the inflow of too many mediocre graduates that needed help preventing themselves from writing buggy programs?

IMHO? Pretty much. That end result is linked to the desire to democratize programming. That was a common talking point back in the 90s-00's. They wanted normal, non-programming people to be able to make websites by themselves without programmers. They wanted to be more inclusive and make programming more accessible to the masses. They thought one day programming would be taught in schools right next to english and they'd use that skill every day to program their computers themselves. The common phrase used was "programming is the new literacy."

They did not succeed. To make the programming tools and languages easier to use, they had to add complicated abstractions. Objects. Exceptions. Garbage Collection. Types had to go. As a result, programming got a lot easier to make simple things, but a whole hell of a lot more complicated to engineer solid, reliable systems.

A lot of the comments in this very comments section show a great deal of fear at not using a framework to program even a simple website. That's a great example of the kind of mindset we've cultivated over the past 30 years. We're so worried about how to utilize an ever growing pool of barely computer literate junior developers that we've Harrison Bergeron'd our best and brightest.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#503
post #419
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean SPAs and near-SPAs. "Web apps". Web sites as in mostly server-rendered sites with HTML, CSS, and some JS sugar on top could sub in for an awful lot of "web apps" and improve UX, performance, maintainability, and development cost. [EDIT] incidentally I notice you keep arguing against things I've not actually written.

It's because I've been trying very hard to understand what your contention is. The bits about peacocking and resume-padding are... unconvincing. > ...improve UX, performance, maintainability, and development cost. I don't buy it at all. As mentioned, I've done both professionally and there are reasons I keep picking React (or a hybrid ala Next) that don't involve a bigger paycheck or "peacocking".

It's usually companies or management/product folks paying for their product to have the peacock feathers. See also: flat/material redesigns not to improve usability—in fact it may make it worse—but to avoid "looking old", not because users complained or metrics look bad but because someone with a budget guesses maybe they might. Similar with choices to make fairly simple sites into heavy SPAs with questionable performance.

> It's because I've been trying very hard to understand what your contention is.

I appreciate it. Seriously!

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#504
Its complicated because people make it complicated. Instead of following trend bullshit and self-justifying tooling insanity start with the a solid foundation and build on it one tiny layer at a time.

This is a learning process. It isn't something a tool can magically do for you. If you think you can nail this in two hours or by dicking around with some tool you are lying to yourself. Don't worry, everybody with half a brain will see you for exactly what you are, so be honest with yourself that you probably aren't some software rockstar and learn to take the primitive dumb stuff very seriously.

If you are hoping a tool will magically do it for you then you will continue to suck. The web will continue to be a complicated mystery. You will probably continue to cry about how hard life is and people won't want to be around you.

At the most primitive the web is HTTP and HTML. Don't over think this. If you understand those you have the web. You don't even need URI. URI is an added convenience.

Next, build less shitty HTML. Any HTML no matter how ugly, inaccessible, presentation-oriented, user-agent centered, and otherwise broken is still a good start so long as it displays content to a web browser. The first goal of HTML is something that just works... somewhat. Improve on this. Learn to write better HTML and better content. Most people don't take HTML seriously, but this is really the most important part of building a good web experience.

Third, learn some presentation using CSS. This will take some practice. This takes some real practice. It isn't hard, and you can do really almost anything with CSS. Even still people FEAR the CSS.

Fourth, be a damn programmer and stop being afraid to read code. Learn to write JavaScript. Learn the concept of scope. Learn to really read code. A bunch of tooling and test automation isn't going to read the code for you, though many developers seem to think that is exactly what layers of unnecessary tools are for. Keep this very simple at first. Learn some basic events and then bail out. Don't immediately think you are some kind of architectural wizard, because you will fail. If you think a framework will solve this for you then continue to be mystified and confused.

Fifth, learn the DOM. The DOM is the heartbeat, or assembly language, of the client-side application experience of the web. The DOM is what binds HTML to the browser and CSS/JavaScript to HTML. Without the DOM you have a plain text experience with really bad presentation that you shouldn't be using. Frameworks won't teach you this. The best way to learn the DOM, how it really works, is to learn XML Schema. I strongly suggest this even if you never use XML or schemas ever again.

Build on that. Baby steps. It takes some effort but it isn't complicated.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#505

The answer to "why is ___ so ___?", is very nearly always best when phrased as the question, "what was supposed to stop __ from __?" The answer is nearly always...nothing. There was nothing, technologically or organizationally, preventing web development from becoming so complicated, such that websites whose desired functionality would be satisfied by static html are now several meg of thousands of lines of javascrip…

I would add one word to this: > There was nothing anymore preventing web development from becoming so complicated The early web was much simpler because of the resource constraints of the 90s and early 2000s. Pages only started serving 10 MB of JS when browsers got to the point where they could chew through 10 MB of JS at a barely acceptable pace. Also: > Managers don't really feel like pointing out "the project I'm…

It’s because you can do a lot of work manually if you have 40 extra drones. If there’s only 10 of you you need to think about things and automate.

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#506
post #2

I don't know, but I do know I would rather fix a race condition on a multithreaded application than figure out how flexbox works or even understand all the different parts of the DOM.

The DOM is stupid easy. Start with this: https://prettydiff.com/2/guide/unrelated_dom.xhtml

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of using a good framework is that conventions and best practices are enforced. If your building a Rails sits there are a set of conventions everyone follows. When a new developer onboards onto the project they know how to extend the code base.

Are you familiar with the concept of a crab basket?

what does it mean in this context?

Re: Why is modern web development so complicated?

#509

Web development sucks precisely because we use a document markup language, a document styling language, and an interaction scripting language to build applications . It was bad enough when we just used this mess to make user interfaces . If you've ever written or worked on a classical desktop application, you'll know what I mean. Since (at least) the 90s there have been visual UI builders and geometry management tool…

Please don’t call a NeXT a “hopped up word processor”
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