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Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

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Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#501

Post by [deleted] »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #481
jniedrauer wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll notice that I didn't say "your environmental impact will automatically be reduced to near that of a vegan diet by eating a pesco-vegetarian diet." Changing to a new category of diet does not absolve you of the need to make responsible decisions. You could technically be a very wasteful vegan and have a higher carbon footprint than an omnivore. You could also be a responsible human being and eat a conservative…

Why "change category" and constantly be chasing the next trendy label? Just eat less meat. When you do eat meat, eat higher welfare meat that's farmed locally (fewer food miles). Why do people take everything to extremes?

[deleted]

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#502

Post by jniedrauer »

uhtred wrote: post #490
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "change category" and constantly be chasing the next trendy label? Just eat less meat. When you do eat meat, eat higher welfare meat that's farmed locally (fewer food miles). Why do people take everything to extremes?

Because most people are vegan for animals not for environment or health, so it's not that they are taking things to extremes, but rather that being responsible for only the occasional death or abuse of another animal isn't an option.

The context of most of these threads on HN is environmental impact. And invariably, vegans show up with an "all or nothing" attitude. I understand if environmental impact is not their primary motivation, but then they should say so.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#503

Post by vbuwivbiu »

pvaldes wrote: post #414

To put things in context; If we wipe from the planet ALL vascular plants, all flowers and trees and ALL vertebrates, fishes, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals, the full pack, plus SIX major phylums of invertebrates including all molluscs, snails, clams and squids, ALL corals and jellyfishes, ALL starfishes and sea urchins, ALL sponges, ALL flatworms, parasites and free living, and every one tunicate described b…

sounds like you're advocating this

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#504

Post by komali2 »

andbberger wrote: post #500
komali2 wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swimmers, tennis players, and runners. No weightlifters. Why the attacks? I don't buy pounds of factory farmed beef a week. I'm buying free range chicken and turkey, sustainable fish, free range egg and cheese. This supports the cause. We are on the same side.

> This supports the cause. We are on the same side. No definitely not you're delusional.

Personal attacks? Seriously?

This is no true Scotsman or some version of it. I don't get to be an environmentalist because I'm not a vegan? Nevermind the composting, bicycling, lobbying, donations, volunteering, picking up of trash, lack of a car, love of nature.

What if I turned this argument around? What if I claimed you can't be an environmentalist if you ever purchase petroleum based products (plastics)? And then I called you delusional for thinking otherwise? How would you feel?

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#505

Post by komali2 »

andbberger wrote: post #499
komali2 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathize with the environmentalist cause, because I am an environmentalist. I listened to a podcast by Dan Harmon once, where he was talking about a fictional protest at Berkeley, with antifa on one side and nazis on the other. One of the Berkeley protesters in the skit says "While I don't support almost any Republican principles, I actually do think I should be allowed to own a gun." The Berkeley students, enrag…

alright that's enough flaming from you for today

You're the one that called me delusional lol where am I flaming?

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#506

Post by TallGuyShort »

eropple wrote: post #493
TallGuyShort wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only thing you can do about that, IMO, is to not be reactionary and not make arguments that seem in the slightest threatening to people. Taking the marriage example, if someone brings up "the sanctity of marriage", instead of just being against that idea, I point out that I agree marriage is sacred and as such I don't want it being subject to definitions in a vote, or having sacred religious ceremonies attached to ta…

As a white, straight, cisgender male, I don't have to give anybody much to react to. When I go at somebody because they're being horrible, it's a choice (and one borne of a certain kind of community; as a white, straight, cisgender male, it's really hard for those reactionaries to bite me). Were I black or gay or trans or a woman and American reactionaries are threatened by me for existing , it is not a choice. When…

I don't think I explained my last point well. Someone, and it was probably conservatives that started it, turned the gay marriage debate into very much a your-definition-versus-my-definition debate. Very few people I think would actually support eliminating the existence of gay people. But a lot of people would be called to action if they feel that the government is going to define something that is part of their religion differently from their religion. I think "if you don't like gay marriage, don't get a gay marriage" is a great argument. But then people who don't want to bake a wedding cake for a gay marriage get taken to court and lose. If you can understand how people wanting to make gay marriage illegal makes gay people feel like their existence is threatened, it's not much of a leap to see how people in the Bible belt look at that sequence of events as a similar threat. So stop the adversarial nature entirely. The government doesn't get to define your peaceful, consensual relationships. End of story. If I want to not bake a wedding cake, and if they gay community wants to take their business elsewhere? That's the respective individual's business. If I want my next of kin to be a man, or a woman, or neither, or multiple people, that's my business. No one's church stops being considered a church because of beliefs regarding a protected class. No one's getting tax breaks for their relationships that other people don't on the basis of gender. Who can feel threatened?

edit: I'm trying to get away from arguing with anecdotes, but let me share a more extreme illustration of how a Christian might also feel "threatened" since you clearly already empathize with the gay community and why they feel threatened. A while ago the library in the next town over hosted a "drag queen story hour". They explicitly advertized this as being an event for children ages 2-8, where kids could come and read with a drag queen. The library said this was to promote diversity and understanding. Obviously the bible thumpers lost their minds, and the library then pulled one of the performers from the event, citing concerns about that performer being bullied. I googled that performer's name as part of trying to figure out what this was all about. The first thing I found was a video of that person, outside, in public, in a major city, masturbating with a toothbrush. The second thing I found was that person in lingerie kneeling before a Christian statue with what I assume to be simulated ejaculate on their face. This person, using the same stage name, was being promoted by the local government for a children's event. And objections about the appropriateness were labelled as bullying. If you're an otherwise peaceful, church-going person who has not previously been much of a party to any LGBT discussions, do you see why these people might feel like there's a threat to their way of life as well? And why they feel disrespected? There's not a lot of openly gay people in this town. This, and media, are all the exposure any of them gets to alternative sexual lifestyles. I don't know how you come back from something like to a reasonable discussion about the real bullying that happens.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#507

Post by Balgair »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #487
Balgair wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the late Dr. Hans Rosling's Factfullness . By many measures, the world is getting much much better. Try testing yourself to see what you know, are you smarter than a chimp?: http://forms.gapminder.org/s3/test-2018

"World" - does this include measurements for the natural world as well (which our world is built on top)? Or just things that have improved human life without looking at the environmental destruction that occurred over the past few decades.

I'd say so. Climate change is real, but not permenent.

If we decide to do massive geo-engineering, it's not going to take 100,000 years to accomplish whatever goal we set. With nothing but pure hubirs to back me up, I'd say it will take 500 years, but more like 100.

We're very smart over a long enough time scale and we will likely live in harmony with the Earth, at least asymptotically so. It'll never be perfect, but it will get close.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#508

Post by Balgair »

unicornporn wrote: post #460
Balgair wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the late Dr. Hans Rosling's Factfullness . By many measures, the world is getting much much better. Try testing yourself to see what you know, are you smarter than a chimp?: http://forms.gapminder.org/s3/test-2018

Better and better? A comment on Hans Rosling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoIcsj9ysvs

Great rebuttal! Thanks for that!

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#509

Post by trymas »

komali2 wrote: post #497
trymas wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an olympic level athlete can reach peak success [0] while "chewing beans" - you can do that too. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2012/ju...

Swimmers, tennis players, and runners. No weightlifters. Why the attacks? I don't buy pounds of factory farmed beef a week. I'm buying free range chicken and turkey, sustainable fish, free range egg and cheese. This supports the cause. We are on the same side.

> No weightlifters.

I've suspected that you'll write this.

https://www.riseofthevegan.com/blog/only-male-us-weightlifte...

Why do you think that 1kg of free range chicken is more ecofriendly [0] than the factory farmed one? I'd agree free range chicken is better from the ethical stand-point, but from pure efficiency of producing 1kg of chicken from available resources, I'd speculate that free range is not more ecological.

We are talking about the fact that people are not fitting on this globe anymore and some sacrifices need to be made. Why are we destroying forests to make land to grow crops to produce meat with 10% efficiency versus if we'd use that land to feed ourselves directly? Growing animals just to slaughter them sounds extremely inefficient, land and resource consuming. 10% efficiency is pretty shitty efficiency when we are low on resources.

[0] in terms of CO2 required, in terms of land required to grow same amount of animal meat, in terms of clean water required, etc.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#510

Post by zaroth »

neuronic wrote: post #477
zaroth wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a reason Apple sales are down so much YoY. People are already not upgrading. Until recently there was enough to be gained from an upgrade every other year for most people. That is no longer true and the market sees that. E.g. Going from 5S to an X is a worthy upgrade. That’s how many years of progress? You will feel the benefits every time you pick up the phone. Turns out people are generally good judges of h…

The span between 5S and X is pretty much the largest one can make between two phones that continue to get security updates. Your point does stand - an X is an enormous upgrade to the 5S in usability and feel. But barely so in function I would say. There are few truly useful things one can do on the X but not on the 5S. Portrait mode pictures? High-definition Netflix streams? 4k images?

I find the larger and full screen front with no clunky home button much easier to use. The form factor is so much easier to type on than the 5S — I have my old 5S plugged into a music dock in the family room and it feels just so ridiculous going back to type on it.

I also really appreciate wireless charging and waterproofing.

Bluetooth and WiFi work better for me on the X than they did on the 5S.

I also opted for 128GB when in the past I always skimpt on storage, and now I really appreciate never having to think about clearing pictures off my phone or if I’ll have space before going on a trip.

Come to think about it, some of my favorite pics of my kids were taken in Portrait mode. It really is a very pleasing effect.

Back when I had the 5S daily, we occasionally pulled out the Canon DSLR. I should probably sell that thing on eBay now...

At this point I don’t know what would drive me to upgrade short of breaking or losing my current X. It would take something groundbreaking, like a phone form factor that also doubled as a laptop through an AR keyboard and AirPlaying to any screen I happened to walk up to.

In the past my phones always got sluggish after a few years. Maybe that was Apple intentionally throttling and hopefully that won’t happen this time around. I don’t do anything on the phone that ever really challenges it except maybe searching through thousands of old emails and web browsing without an ad blocker.

My wife has I think a 7 Plus (?) and has absolutely no desire to upgrade.

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