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Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

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Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#501

Post by kennyadam »

Kalium wrote: post #468
xg15 wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will share your opinion when we at some point have an immersive, livable virtual reality in which everyone has control over their own code. Until that, the current virtual "communities" seem like a poor substitute for actual communities, long-term. Yes, you get to meet like-minded people (or more precisely, one aspect of the personalities of some like-minded people), however what you can actually do with them is ti…

That some people prefer them, complete with all the incredibly glaring shortcomings you so correctly identify, might be considered by some to be eloquent commentary on the importance of choice.

I'd say it's incredibly obvious why people would prefer a restricted environment where they can present themselves as their idealised self. I'm sure it's great for some people, but arguing that it's great for everyone, and not damaging for society as a whole, seems shortsighted.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#502

Post by burfog »

gniv wrote: post #489
burfog wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got burned by "buying a product and not knowing when it will fail". Samsung made the largest fridge available. I got the $2500 model: stainless steel, no IoT but digital, double doors over drawer freezer. It looked really solid and durable. It failed in so many distinct and interesting ways! The door shelves constantly shattered, at $50 each. The structure had been compromised by artistic design, with two kinds of…

> I've learned my lesson: do not pay more in an attempt to get quality, because you'll just pay more for the same old junk. I don't agree. I think you can still buy quality things. The problem is that the market pushed the prices so low for "good enough" products, that it's difficult to justify paying much more. In the case of refrigerators, you'd have to pay at least three times more for a Sub-Zero fridge, for examp…

I wouldn't trust the Sub-Zero fridge. I suppose I could feel somewhat safe with a refund/replace warranty (at my choice) with hefty payouts for downtime.

I went looking at high-end oven/range things one day, after having had the Samsung fridge experience. I noticed that underneath the fancy knobs they had the same crappy quarter-inch shafts as the low-end models. Some of the knobs looked like seriously impressive chunks of steel or brass... but that only put more weight and leverage on the standard-sized shafts.

I saw somebody take apart an older iPhone, maybe the 4. The phone had some really nice looking buttons on the side, machined out of stainless steel. Inside the phone it was a very different story: really flimsy crap.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#503

Post by marssaxman »

pathseeker wrote: post #358
Kalium wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we just agree that it's not evil that people get a choice now where they didn't before? You're very right! Sharing ideas to enhance your local community can be incredibly valuable and rewarding! However, some people occasionally find that their local communities do not always uniformly and enthusiastically welcome the ideas they want to share. Some people, faced with such experiences and fears, might consider tha…

> Can we just agree that it's not evil that people get a choice now where they didn't before? It depends. I find the fact that people can isolate themselves into communities where it's very easy to censor out any possible dissenters and dissenting opinions to be pretty damn damaging to our society.

The phrase "isolate themselves into communities" strikes me oddly. I'm glad to have more options for finding communities I might be able to be a part of.

What makes it "our" society? I've never felt like a part of it.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#504

Post by kartan »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #442
kartan wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “you ought to own the stuff you possess.” That is the base that Richard Stallman created for the open source movement. You should own your own hardware, and the only way of fulfilling that is to own the software that makes it run. And I also thought that this is common sense at least for the past generation of developers. I am not so sure how much the message has been lost, but it is not so strong as it used to be.

Why though? I'm definitely of the sort that doesn't buy into Stallman's philosophy at all. What's the practical negative impact that I ought to be feeling from engaging in commerce with the usual suspects: Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.? Because to me, it just looks like the (mostly potential/future) downsides are massively outweighed by the (mostly actual/current) upsides.

> Because to me, it just looks like the (mostly potential/future) downsides are massively outweighed by the (mostly actual/current) upsides.

Yes. That is true for most things. Eat fatty and sugar-rich food, have pleasure now pay it later. Drink a lot of alcohol, have fun now pay the consequences later. Burn fossil fuels have cheap energy now have catastrophic consequences later. Spend all money now, not have savings in the future.

You are prioritizing current convenience against future consequences. That is a very human thing to do.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#505

Post by Broken_Hippo »

_bxg1 wrote: post #190
crazygringo wrote: post #167

This is beyond ridiculous. The crux of the article is: > Each of these changes is beneficial, yet I worry that Americans are, slowly but surely, losing their connection to the idea of private ownership. The nation was based on the notion that property ownership gives individuals a stake in the system. It set Americans apart from feudal peasants, taught us how property rights and incentives operate, and was a kind of…

> Whether you own music or rent it doesn't give you a stake in the system, nor does owning a car vs using public transport. You're correct, but it does at least give you some agency independent of the system. If you own a DRM-free mp3, you can listen to that song every day for the rest of your life if you want to. Whereas if you just have a Spotify subscription, a record company can decide to pull the track whenever…

I don't want to listen to the same collection of songs every day for the rest of my life, though. If services like Spotify fail and go away completely, the solution wouldn't be that I start buying music all of the sudden: It would be that I listen to less music, much like I did before these services came about.

If one record company pulls a track, so be it. That track will simply be out of my rotation. If I happen to be listening to popular music and I really want to hear the song, it is probably available other places. If I can't find it, so be it: I'll listen to something else and soon forget about that song. No big deal. In the end, I'm still dependent on the record company making it available in some way or another.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#506

Post by imgabe »

emodendroket wrote: post #282
imgabe wrote: post #28

Well, it's trivial to strip the DRM from Kindle books and and back them up.

So what? How many people know that, and of the people who do, how many bother to do it? Even among those who do, the legality of what they're doing is unclear. I don't see how it changes anything the article says.

The point is you don't have to leave it up to Amazon whether or not you own something.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#507

Post by coldtea »

Kalium wrote: post #416
coldtea wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I view this as a distinct upgrade. Instead of being coerced into lots of interaction with people I may have nothing in common with except vague geographical proximity, I have the option of interacting with people who actually share my interests or concerns or hobbies. I.e. echo chamber.

Every community is an echo chamber, digital and analog alike.

Not really. You probably have in mind a "community of interest". But the analog world forces you into many communities of proximity without shared interests as well.

There are communities where you pick the people who are associated with, and communities where you don't get to do that (or do it as much).

The internet gives you huge control over picking communities that think/have interests exactly like yours (and that's exactly what the parent was mentioning to like about the internet communities).

In real life communities that are not e.g. a chess club, but more like neighborhood, school, etc, you are forced to live with, and deal with, all kinds of people, not just the one you chose to. At best, you can move to a different location, but you still don't have the control to pinpoint and seggregate interests the internet gives you.

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#508

Post by buck4roo »

Alex3917 wrote: post #329
fallingfrog wrote: post #187

Everything this guy illustrates in this article as frightening and subversive, I see as positive. Americans confuse control with love; that's why we say things like "you belong to me" and "I only hurt you because I love you". That's why we substitute possessions for relationships. It's a thoroughly poisonous attitude. The most bizarre statement is when he says "The nation was based on the notion that property ownersh…

> It's pretty obvious to me that a deliberate and intentional effort has been made to ensure that only people who own a lot of property have any voice in the system; to flip that relationship around and make it a moral statement is frankly a little scary. That's not true. The reason why property ownership was required to vote is because in a democracy, the founders knew that if the majority of voters didn't have prop…

> the founders knew that if the majority of voters didn't have property then they would eventually just vote to take away the property of others.

That argument seems to fly in the face of the 5th Amendment:

"... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#509

Post by buck4roo »

_louisr_ wrote: post #223
crazygringo wrote: post #167

This is beyond ridiculous. The crux of the article is: > Each of these changes is beneficial, yet I worry that Americans are, slowly but surely, losing their connection to the idea of private ownership. The nation was based on the notion that property ownership gives individuals a stake in the system. It set Americans apart from feudal peasants, taught us how property rights and incentives operate, and was a kind of…

>If we want to be nervous, let's investigate inequality of net worth And we should find ourselves completely at ease at the end of our investigation, for in every species success is distributed inequitably. Inequality of net worth is a natural law, and human society is no exception. And we need to keep very hard working people motivated to keep working very hard by ensuring them that they will always keep the lions s…

> And we need to keep very hard working people motivated to keep working very hard by ensuring them that they will always keep the lions share of their labour's products.

you're joking with this part, amiright?

don't you think "very hard working people" receive more like the vulture's share, only after the lions have fully fed?

Re: Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous

#510

Post by Timpy »

lolsal wrote: post #333
supernovae wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the value of "owning" something? I've owned VHS's, they're worthless I've owned houses - that I had to short sell I've owned DVD's - they're worthless I've owned Books - they're worthless What is the value of owning over just paying to enjoy access? I like spotify because i can sync music to my phone to play offline - but "owning" all this music is worthless... I had a HUGE cd collection growing up but they w…

> I've owned VHS's, they're worthless ... > I've owned DVD's - they're worthless > I've owned Books - they're worthless I honestly find this unbelievable and amazing. You have never rewatched a video, or re-read a book? You've never lent a movie or a book to a friend? You've never used a movie or a book to job your memory and spark a conversation with someone? There is value in all of those things to me, not to menti…

A movie is a story you experience, the physical copy that you own is representative of the experience but it is not the experience. If we lived in a world where I could have ready access to my favorite movie without having a physical copy on hand, the value of such a physical copy would be reduced sentimental value. The physical disk that holds the movie is nothing but a souvenir from the vacation, you can have a physical item representative of the experience to admire, but it is not the experience.

Likewise, a book's value is not in the paper and binding, but the content of the writing. I concede that I have an attachment to the exact copies of my favorite books, but I don't feel like I should. The important things are the what I take with me from reading, not the physical books themselves.

I'm tired of consumerism, I'm tired of articles complaining about the change of paradigms since the baby-boomer generation. I'm not going to consume media in the same way a middle class worker from the 70's or 80's did. A subscription service lets me listen to any song I can think of on a whim while driving in my car, not limited to the selection of CD's I can jam into a binder. If the apocalypse hits and Amazon Web Services goes down I'll start buying CDs again.

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