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Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

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Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#501

Unfortunately pricks.com, by Blake Ross, is no longer online. However, the CDN that hosted it is still up so here is the direct link - it's a script for a comedy show based on theranos, and painfully close to reality https://web.archive.org/web/20160604083644/http://static1.sq...

Hah good memory! I guess I'll resurrect it for the trial :)

I passed it on to everyone I knew that was in any way related to the comedy/entertainment industry. And a lot of other people besides. It's excellent writing, even though it's for a medium I generally don't enjoy. Thank you for putting it out there! And that was an excellent use of that domain name.

Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, regarding the Shrekli case, didn’t everyone end up financially better off than they started?

Umm, the money had to come from somewhere.

It came from the pockets of insurers and individuals who couldn't afford insurance at all when he jacked up the prices of essential drugs.

That wasn't illegal at all though :)

Just that he lied to his investors about the source of the returns.

Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For all those entrepreneurs are trying to "fake it until you make it" be aware that the SEC considers your strategy both fraudulent " Sigh. The SEC is concerned with lying about actual numbers. Not about future projections. What a terrible comment on a startup forum. "Fake it until you make it" it as about having confidence -- not about lying to investors. Please downvote this parent comment.

The SEC is concerned with lying about actual numbers. Not about future projections. Our experiences are different I suspect, Check this out https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answers-regfdhtm.html . I sat in the courtroom once as one of the officers of a company was being prosecuted for violating this disclosure rule. There are a number of regulations that the SEC enforces that have nothing to do with "actual numbers"…

> Our experiences are different I suspect, Check this out https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answers-regfdhtm.html.

What this has to do with the parent comment? I'm asking these because I'm not sure I follow the reasoning. Your concern is that the SEC has very strict reporting standards and regulations. These are intended to provide a fair field between all investors (accredited and non-accredited) in order for the market to function in a more efficient way. In exchange for this increased cost of regulation upfront, the transaction between investors on the company's shares have a much lower friction (and transaction costs).

Private companies have lower regulation because the assumption is that the investors willing to buy shares are open to assume higher transaction costs in terms of due diligence. Obviously, reporting the false could open the company to lawsuits, but that's also part of the potential cost for the investors.

The choice between being a public company and a private one, in the end, is a function also of this trade-off. If I understand your reasoning, you fear that the SEC forcing himself into the private market could increase the regulatory cost of all startup. Am I right?

If that is correct, my answer would be that the SEC is not imposing the full regulation but just a minimum level of accurate reporting on behalf of the investors. This is because there's an assumption that a well behaved private market is essential to make the economy more active (imagine if this level of lying was accepted, how many investors would be willing to invest?). On the other side, I see the risk of a slippery slope and having the SEC power to grow to large and kill the startup ecosystems. I don't have a clear answer for that.

Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#504
post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Madoff though? In 1999, financial analyst Harry Markopolos had informed the SEC that he believed it was legally and mathematically impossible to achieve the gains Madoff claimed to deliver. According to Markopolos, it took him four minutes to conclude that Madoff's numbers did not add up, and another minute to suspect they were likely fraudulent.[73] After four hours of failed attempts to replicate Madoff'…

1. A sufficiently large distribution will contain outliers. 2. Where is Madoff now?

> 1. A sufficiently large distribution will contain outliers.

A sufficiently large enough example which failed to be stopped by investigators for a decade could easily outweigh thousands of outliers ultimately being a serious net-negative and outweighing such a dismissal of facts...

The fact such a blatantly wrong example proceed to scale up for a decade and encompass billions of dollars before being shutdown is quite a good example of how any one investigator's knack for detail in their own limited exposure to particular cases (as in your personal analogy) is hardly sufficient to dismiss the idea that all complex cases need not worry of SEC investigation. Quite the opposite.

If anything that means the SEC has smart people but only a limited capacity of attention as they tend to obsess over details in individual cases (as that is what is required in a significant percentage of them). So as long as you're not one of the easy cases (obvious ponzi schemes or involving large sums, significant amounts of people, or popular advertising) then it's not as worrying a threat as they'd like to make it appear.

Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#505
post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. A sufficiently large distribution will contain outliers. 2. Where is Madoff now?

1. Enron? WorldCom? The entire real estate bubble collapse that blindsided the country, including the SEC and other regulators? 2. Madoff was caught because his scheme fell apart, not due to any SEC or other government action.

Maybe you didn't carefully read my original post. I'm not claiming the SEC has a perfect record in finding frauds before the hurt anyone (that would be nearly impossible). I am pointing out that getting away with fraud is extremely difficult. Eventually, you'll get caught, the SEC will uncover everything, and you'll be broke forever. From op:

>...avoiding the ire of the SEC is relatively easy if you set your mind to committing fraud without getting caught.

This statement is mostly what I was responding to. Here is a thought experiment. For the sake of this experiment lets say our economy is perfectly competitive. If all an entity had to do to get away with fraud was "set your mind to not getting caught," then every entity that participated in the economy would be committing fraud because it is in their best interest. That sounds wrong, probably because it is. White collar criminals don't plan on getting caught, they do everything they can to get away with their crimes. To me, that qualifies as setting their mind to not getting caught. Well, they get caught anyway.

The companies you bring up (enron, worldcom, madoff) are outliers in the world of securities fraud. they achieved unprecedented levels of success and then failure. Using these cases are counterpoints to an argument that financial crimes are hard to get away with seems silly to me. After all, none of these frauds were successful in the end, instead, people ended up in prison.

Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#506
post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SEC is concerned with lying about actual numbers. Not about future projections. Our experiences are different I suspect, Check this out https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answers-regfdhtm.html . I sat in the courtroom once as one of the officers of a company was being prosecuted for violating this disclosure rule. There are a number of regulations that the SEC enforces that have nothing to do with "actual numbers"…

> Our experiences are different I suspect, Check this out https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answers-regfdhtm.html . What this has to do with the parent comment? I'm asking these because I'm not sure I follow the reasoning. Your concern is that the SEC has very strict reporting standards and regulations. These are intended to provide a fair field between all investors (accredited and non-accredited) in order for the ma…

[styling note, I had pulled out the statement made in the GP comment and made it italics to emphasize it, in reference to the above comment's question "what this has to do with the parent comment].

So stylism aside, you have correctly surmised my concern that the SEC is looking to move into private markets more aggressively. I think the reason for that is nuanced but having lived through the dot.com bubble and watched how the government responded to that bubble (Sarbanes Oxley anyone?) And the huge losses that are being taken by the large banks as their Unicorns died in this the Unicorn bubble, basically accredited or not investors with lots of capital get mad when they are mislead, and their anger typically results in them getting their "friends" to do something about it. We currently have an integration between banking interest and the administration that is as deep as it has ever been. So there are many contacts both official and unofficial between Wall Street and DC.

There is also the perception of the disproportionate channeling of wealth creation to a smaller number of people through private company 'trading'. Add the antics of Uber and Theranos to the mix and it provides a convenient place for the powers that be to take "logical" and "needed" steps to curb the abuses. Generally resulting in more regulation and more risk on startups.

Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#507
post #504
post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. A sufficiently large distribution will contain outliers. 2. Where is Madoff now?

> 1. A sufficiently large distribution will contain outliers. A sufficiently large enough example which failed to be stopped by investigators for a decade could easily outweigh thousands of outliers ultimately being a serious net-negative and outweighing such a dismissal of facts... The fact such a blatantly wrong example proceed to scale up for a decade and encompass billions of dollars before being shutdown is quit…

Again, point is not just about SEC investigation. I'm pushing back against the notion that getting away with fraud is as simple as setting your mind to it.

Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#508
http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html

> 4. Naughtiness

> Though the most successful founders are usually good people, they tend to have a piratical gleam in their eye. They're not Goody Two-Shoes type good. Morally, they care about getting the big questions right, but not about observing proprieties. That's why I'd use the word naughty rather than evil. They delight in breaking rules, but not rules that matter. This quality may be redundant though; it may be implied by imagination.

> Sam Altman of Loopt is one of the most successful alumni, so we asked him what question we could put on the Y Combinator application that would help us discover more people like him. He said to ask about a time when they'd hacked something to their advantage—hacked in the sense of beating the system, not breaking into computers. It has become one of the questions we pay most attention to when judging applications.

Too naughty, Sam? I suppose it all depends on whether or not you pull it off. If her oversold, semi-vaporwear tech ultimately panned out, and she ultimately got the Defense Department deals she lied to her investors about having, I could easily see her being held up as another celebrated example of "fake it 'till you make it." (Or until the SEC shuts you down for fraud).

Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#509
post #498
post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm hearing is "avoiding the ire of the SEC is relatively easy" because "Bernie Madoff." IMO that is naive. He is an outlier. Sort of like saying committing mass acts of terrorism is easy because 911.

Also, actual SEC filings. But fine, here's a paper: https://business.illinois.edu/accountancy/wp-content/uploads... I can't find it now, but I do recall the SEC itself putting the number of frauds they uncovered in the low single digits. I might ask my SEC friend himself what percentage of the iceberg he thinks is uncovered.

I have asked him this. Paraphrasing his words: eventually, the SEC investigates virtually all securities frauds. Some cases are dropped if the act was criminal in nature and the FBI or law enforcement wants it, other cases are dropped if the suspect is deceased or fled, and of course there are cases where leads go cold and the case is back burnered.

The point is, fraud is risky, and it isn't easy. You basically have to be willing to give up your life as you know it. Sometimes I wonder whether fraudsters have an internal dialogue about whether it is worth the risk. And for the fraudsters who aren't psychopaths the guilt of defrauding friends and people who trust you must be enormous. Sounds like a stressful day job that I won't ever be entertaining.

Re: Theranos, CEO Holmes, and Former President Balwani Charged with Fraud

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acting like a idiot is not ILLEGAL !!!

If you think that your attitude and words have no bearing on what happens to you in these situations you're beyond naive. The justice system is made up of people, not robots. Nothing unethical was done it him, he was convicted and sentenced accordingly. If you get pulled over and call the cops a dick the second he walks up to your car, you're gonna have a bad time (and you deserve it.)

"Nothing unethical was done it him, he was convicted and sentenced accordingly"

Dumbfounded by your words, a 800% increase from the average sentence is, I think completely ok in a just system.

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