A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists • Hacker News Board

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#501

Post by ck425 » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 8:59 AM UTC

cgriswald wrote: post #432

chimprich wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why shouldn’t cyclists need a license to ride on the road? Thought experiment: if you didn't have any motorised vehicles on the road, would you still want cyclists to have a licence? In a general case though, requiring cyclists to have a licence would reduce the number of cyclists, probably significantly. This would correspondingly increase the number of motorists. This dual effect would have a number of negative i…

> In a general case though, requiring cyclists to have a licence would reduce the number of cyclists, probably significantly. This would correspondingly increase the number of motorists. Most cyclists are licensed drivers, and a test for cycling licensing would, at worst, probably be no more difficult than that for driving. The impact on the number of cyclists would be minimal. A bicycle can injure or kill a pedestri…

No, they are not. Atleast outside the US they're not. I know a significant number of people, myself included, who are experienced cyclists who have never driven a car in their life. Cycling is far more common in urban areas where driving is impractical or amongst young people who can't afford or don't want to drive.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#502

Post by lmm » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 9:20 AM UTC

inuit12 wrote: post #466

lmm wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I could, as someone who doesn't have a driving license, or has never learned to drive, go out on the road with my bicycle and more or less ride whenever and wherever I like. Sure. Realistically, how much danger do people doing this represent to society? There are plenty of dangerous things that people could do, but the heavy machinery of law should be reserved for actual problems rather than hypothetical ones. > If…

For 5-19 YO it is 3rd most common, but when you look at the whole population it doesn’t even make the list. source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-profile-fo...

Ah ok, I guess that must've been specific to my age range. (3rd most common there now).

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#503

Post by mnw21cam » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 9:24 AM UTC

squiggleblaz wrote: post #496

mnw21cam wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a 4-way give way junction here [1]. That's the closest you will get in the UK. It means give way to anything that is in the junction before you are, but the actual effect is for cyclists to frequently be aggressively hooted at and nearly run over by cars. [1] https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2190575,0.1178374,105m/dat...

I think the UK has a lot of "mini roundabouts" where they just paint a circle on the road and mount roundabout signs. Traffic paths are similar to what they would be without the circle. Of course, the give-way rule is different: give-way to your left (easy), rather than give-way to those who arrived first (hard).

You give way to your right, not your left, on a mini-roundabout in the UK.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#504

Post by lmm » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 9:25 AM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #475

lmm wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A driver coming up behind you as you're starting to set off ( or immediately after you've fallen down) when the queue ahead of you is already moving. Somehow you tend to blend into the queue visually - the driver doesn't see you as separate from the vehicle in front of you, and doesn't realise you're still there when the vehicle starts moving (or does realise you're there, but rushes past you unsafely) - and the risk…

Personally I see running red lights as a much higher accident risk than drivers of stationary vehicles failing to see me when I'm stopped right in front of them.

It's not the stationary drivers I'd worry about, it's those arriving behind them.

"Running red lights" with no further context seems to describe something extremely dangerous, but many specific classes of running red lights are completely safe.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#505

Post by viraptor » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 10:34 AM UTC

ygra wrote: post #499

viraptor wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be way better. Some ideas: - pedestrian/cyclists signs can be made on the pavement instead - which lane goes where is repeated 3 times - if it's so that you know them when you join the road, 2 can be moved to the side roads instead - one of the right of way signs can go - no parking can be replaced with a chain / bolards - the end of pedestrian/cyclist path is useless since it's reopened after the crossing Pol…

I'm not sure the signs on the pavement have the same meaning as the actual signs. In many places (Germany for example) »signs« on the ground are merely a courtesy (e.g. the 30 in 30 zones), but not legally binding, and the actual signs define the rules.

They're called horizonal and vertical signs in Poland and they are binding. The solid line between lanes counts as a horizontal sign as well.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#506

Post by Piskvorrr » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 12:17 PM UTC

dabbledash wrote: post #449

beat wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing bicycles to follow rules designed for cars is often silly and sometimes actively dangerous. For example, the bike route from downtown to my house involves making a left turn on a busy street. For a mile and a half, the street is nice and wide, with generous bike lanes in both directions - sensible and safe. But the moment I have to turn left? By car laws , I need to stop in the middle of the road, with traffi…

That u-turn sounds legal for everybody. I think one the purposes of traffic law is to make the behavior of all participants predictable. My only issue with cyclists is I feel I can never predict what they're going to do.

Depends on the local law. In some cities, this is bike-legal, and even officially encouraged as "indirect left turn": see the side-street bike box, intended just for this: on your green, you cross the side street, turn right-then-left into the box and wait for a green signal to cross the main road. https://prahounakole.cz/wp-content/pnk/uploads/2013/03/pruhy...

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#507

Post by Piskvorrr » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 12:23 PM UTC

cgriswald wrote: post #468

beat wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Requiring a license doesn't seem to make car drivers any better. And most bicyclists already have a driver's license. Those who don't tend to be kids, or poor (having a driver's license is privilege, although a common one). Forcing them to need a license will just create more illegal bicyclists. Law enforcement can already ticket a bicyclist, license or no license. Bicyclists already know when they're breaking t…

> Why? Requiring a license doesn't seem to make car drivers any better. Then let's advocate for getting rid of licensing since it has a cost and no benefit. I don't think you really mean that, do you? I've got plenty of ideas for a better licensing system for driving. > Forcing them to need a license will just create more illegal bicyclists. Illegal drivers face consequences that licensed drivers do not face. The sam…

Not sure where that is - out here (central Europe) the examples like "no DUI or sidewalks allowed" are known almost universally. Of course, knowledge won't stop you - a completely drunk (0.2 BAC) driver just killed a pedestrian a few days ago: he knew it was blatantly illegal, had a valid driver's license to certify that, but went out for a drive just the same.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#508

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

underwater wrote: post #188

jdavis703 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most vehicle collisions are not blameless though. They are caused by inattentive people; I've almost been hit multiple times by people either on their cell phone, or chatting with a passenger in their vehicle. Other times drivers are purposely driving with a priority on agressivenss over safety. If we ever get to a state of zero traffic fatalities then maybe blameless post-mortems would make sense. But there's too mu…

If you acknowledge that people are inherently inattentive or malicious then you can design a system that protects people even when someone is to blame.

Such a system probably wouldn't include people driving automobiles?

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#509

Post by upofadown » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 1:28 PM UTC

DaveInTucson wrote: post #485

upofadown wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words: the innocent victims of bad driving should just be more careful... Your comment does bring up something interesting. These days, due to sharply sloped front windows (aerodynamic efficiency) and smoked glass rear windows (where allowed) it is almost impossible to even see a driver of an approaching car, much less make eye contact with them. A unintended consequence of what might seem to be two unrelate…

I wondered if I would be accused of victim blaming. I'm just suggesting better education is probably a useful avenue to improve the situation.

Of drivers? Sure! :)

Another interesting issue is that it is hard to do effective cyclist/pedestrian education in a hardcore car culture. In such an environment it is not really possible to include information about common driver errors such as right and left hooks. I remember the particuarly unhelpful things I learned in school. It came down to looking both ways before crossing the street and riding in a straight line. That is pretty wrongheaded in an environment where 80% of the collisions are caused by driver error.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#510

Post by cup-of-tea » Thu, Jan 11, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

papermule wrote: post #434

cup-of-tea wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some rural areas" is in reality almost every mile of road outside of towns. You've clearly never walked in the countryside.

> You've clearly never walked in the countryside. I've lived in the countryside for 14 years. I don't walk on the roads where I live. The roads are narrow and there is no place to walk as the side of the roads are raised embankments built from tree roots. Looks like this: http://c8.alamy.com/comp/C41G6T/country-lane-with-trees-form...

The roads are narrow, so you don't walk? What? That makes no sense.

Living somewhere that you can't even walk around sounds like some kind of prison. How do you get around? It sounds like you are unable to get around without burning fossil fuels. How does that make you feel?