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Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

blog.cloudflare.com

501–510 of 1001 posts

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#501
post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do businesses (NOT THE GOVERNMENT) have the right to choose what content and customers they serve? Yes. This is why VISA was instrumental in the 'war on porn' and why every service provider ever has a provision in their contracts stating they can terminate your online presence at their discretion. That's a way for the industry to avoid becoming government regulated, as long as this self regulation takes care of the…

Others have touched on this: the concept of a protected class seems odd when faced with the idea that all people are to be afforded equal protection under the law (14th amendment)

No, it isn't odd at all: societies are made up of people and people in large numbers do not always act in a way that protects those that are weaker or in smaller numbers so to avoid the tyranny of the majority protected classes exist in order to make sure that it is spelled out under what circumstances you can and can not discriminate against others.

So yes, everybody is afforded equal protection under the law and protected classes exist to ensure that the majority can not hide behind their majority in order to legalize discriminatory practices.

You are suggesting that being a member of a (protected) class now equates to having an advantage but this is not the case, it is to make sure that being a member of a certain class does not become a disadvantage.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to contradict the recent view in the LGBTQ. community that gender is a social construct and that you can choose which gender feels right for you! Your implication that being gay has to do with biology and hence it has a hereditary component is at odds with what we are currently hearing from everywhere. Which view is it the valid one? To me these are exclusive so in the community should choose just one discou…

Wow, grossly misrepresented and mischarachaterized. As a member of the LGBTQ community I have met zero trans people who feel that they chose their gender expression, and zero people who felt they chose their sexual orientation, instead of being born and growing into their identities over time. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I highly, doubt it's anywhere close to a plurality much less a majority. Where exactly ha…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

https://lgbtq.unc.edu/resources/exploring-identities

http://lgbt.wikia.com/wiki/Gender_identity

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#503

I hope a civil lawsuit advances this conversation much faster than the Cloudflare CEO can. Yes, speech and expression has consequences. The reactionary service provider likely faces consequences too. A court could easily side with the "abhorrent neo-nazis" if DDOSing raises their bills and Cloudflare's adhoc policy was the culprit, no matter what arbitration clause was written in their contract, and put the damages o…

yeah, no. Because among those great freedoms is the freedom of contract. Just as you can, in the absence of an agreed-upon fixed term, cancel your subscription to "Armchair Paralegal Monthly" any day you want, CF is free to fire any of their customers.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#504
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's stupid. Why should I have anymore right to discriminate against people with red hair than people with black skin? If it's wrong, it's wrong no matter the group you do it to.

I'm talking about the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which outlaws discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. You can discriminate against red-haired people but not black people.

It seems very unlikely that discriminating against red-haired people would survive a challenge since it is strongly correlated with specific races.

i.e. "we don't serve people with dark very curly hair", good luck with that one.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloudflare is pushing its pretend free speech PR too hard. But make no mistake, it's still just PR, no company like that actually cares about free speech.

That's a fallacy because "free speech" is not unlimited - every civilization recognizes its existence is the result of limiting specific freedoms in order to guarantee everyone other freedoms. Germany, among others, outlaw this kind of content because they experienced the end result first-hand. Perhaps the US should learn from them.

> That's a fallacy because "free speech" is not unlimited - every civilization recognizes its existence is the result of limiting specific freedoms in order to guarantee everyone other freedoms.

Speech can't limit anyone else's freedom however.

> Germany, among others, outlaw this kind of content

Leading to multiple wwii games having a different version for Germany and for the rest of the world due to the censorship that they apply.

> Perhaps the US should learn from them.

Why should it?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#506
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about amplifying someone. There is a difference between ignoring someone and silencing them. Cloudflare's move seems more like silencing than ignoring to me. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think everyone should be able to put their (sometimes terrible) opinions on the internet, and we'll trust society to decide which ideas are terrible and should be ignored.

CF terminating their service absolutely does not silence them. They have many other ways to get their message out, even ways that look identical to what CF was providing. If they end up actually getting turned away everywhere, and have no avenue to get their message out, then perhaps that's saying something about what everyone else things of the quality of their message. And yes, this sort of thing needs to be decide…

For what it's worth, yes, I would still argue that ISIS recruitment videos should be allowed on the internet. (But I could see my future self renouncing this as immature and un-nuanced.) Because in general, I am more afraid of overreaction to terrorism than terrorism itself.

That's true that there are alternatives to CF. As long as there is at least one anti-DDoS provider with an "everyone is welcome" attitude, I suppose CF can do whatever they want. So I'll concede that point.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#507
post #470
post #4

>“This was my decision. This is not Cloudflare’s general policy now, going forward,” Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince told Gizmodo. “I think we have to have a conversation over what part of the infrastructure stack is right to police content.” (from internal email) >Let me be clear: this was an arbitrary decision. It was different than what I’d talked talked with our senior team about yesterday. I woke up this morning i…

People seem to be missing the entire substance of what he's getting at. That's why he mentions "no one should have that power". He even follows up about this in the blog. > Without a clear framework as a guide for content regulation, a small number of companies will largely determine what can and cannot be online. People seem to be saying, "you can't have it both ways". I think the point is that without actually exec…

Exactly! Extremely frustrating that the rest of the quote wasn't included.

"Having made that decision we now need to talk about why it is so dangerous. I’ll be posting something on our blog later today. Literally, I woke up in a bad mood and decided someone shouldn’t be allowed on the Internet. No one should have that power."

His Gizmodo quotes are somewhat revealing as well:

“We need to have a discussion around this, with clear rules and clear frameworks. My whims and those of Jeff [Bezos] and Larry [Page] and Satya [Nadella] and Mark [Zuckerberg], that shouldn’t be what determines what should be online,” he said. “I think the people who run The Daily Stormer are abhorrent. But again I don’t think my political decisions should determine who should and shouldn’t be on the internet.”

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#508
post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

> It's an outrage that businesses that want to enjoy all the benefits of selling to the public can discriminate against members of that public for any spurious or bigoted reason they like.

> Don't wanna sell cakes to gay people or host pro-Nazi sites? Don't start a business serving the public then.

Work and business is an enormous part of human life: exempting businesses from Constitutional protections dramatically limit the scope of those protections. Should federal agents be able to raid a business without regard for the Fourth Amendment? Should Texas be able to take legal action against Amazon, Microsoft, etc. for speaking out against the anti-bathroom bill?

In America, you get to run a business with whatever political views you have, subject to very narrow restrictions of a handful of anti-discrimination statutes (which are, incidentally, all based on the much-maligned Commerce Clause).

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#510
post #350

Honest question for people who think this stifles freedom: do you also think taking down ISIS recruitment videos is anti-free speech? Should we not do that either? Online radicalization is real. The challenge of how to deal with that and offer considerable freedom on the Internet will be a challenge for our society.

I think Cloudfare made the wrong decision here, but for me the reasons it's damaging to free speech are deeper than "is free speech at the level of government or private organizations?"

There's a couple of ways of looking at this. One is to say Cloudfare is a private company, they were free to make a decision, they exercised that right, and now white nationalists have the right to choose to go to a different provider. Others have the right to do business or withhold business from Cloudfare in response.

Another, though, is to say that Cloudfare is now in a unique position--by the CEO's own admission--and has power over another person's speech as a result. It would be akin to a husband controlling a wife's contacts with others. Sure, the wife could leave, but that's not really a good argument for the husband's behavior being ok; someone is, similarly in the hands of the company somewhat unfairly.

Yet another way to look at it is this: when Cloudfare decides it can and will make content-based decisions, have they now implicitly argued that when they don't remove content, they implicitly support that content, in that it's not aversive enough to remove? Where do you draw the line with that? And if a company nominally accepts that responsibility, does that mean we, in exchange, should allow them to regulate other traffic?

One argument for net neutrality is that while it binds a corporation's hands, it also frees them of responsibility for things they might otherwise be liable for. This was the bargain with phone companies, after all, with common carrier status. No one blames the phone company for supporting white supremacists because they carried their phone calls, but nor do they worry about the phone company dropping their calls because the phone company disagrees with their political position.

My impression is that the CEO of Cloudfare is freaking out at the moment because he realizes he has now made Cloudfare implicitly responsible for the content on its systems, and has opened up an argument against net neutrality. He's essentially saying to the government "please come up with rules that absolve us for responsibility in this situation."

If Cloudfare had simply said "we don't drop clients because of the nature of the content" they would have had a very strong position. Now they've opened a can of worms and have called into question their complicity in the content they carry.

They can't have it both ways: by saying that white supremacist groups are too aversive for them, they have now implicitly said that everything else is not too aversive. This is a very undesirable route to be going in in terms of freedom of speech.

For what it's worth, I also oppose network companies removing ISIS recruitment videos, all other things being equal. Now, if a court decided that the content poster/creator was in violation of some ethical and legal code to such an extent that their right to distribute content should be restricted, that's one thing, but that would require actual due process in a court of law.

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