Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup • Hacker News Board

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#501

Post by cpeterso » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 5:02 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #420

noamyoungerm wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subscription models and micropayments are not mutually exclusive, as in Spotify - you pay a subscription fee to listen to unlimited music. In practice that is the same as paying a fraction of a cent to the artist each time you listen to a song. I would be willing to pay for a service that tracked each site I visited and billed me at the end of the month at a price-per-pageview comparable to CPM prices today. EDIT: Th…

This service already exists (in the form of Google Contributor).

or Flattr.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#502

Post by rorykoehler » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 5:06 AM UTC

teacup50 wrote: post #439

rorykoehler wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I buy books all the time. That is very different to the bubblegum content I read online which would fall under the micro-payments model though.

Bubblegum content appeared in direct response to the death of the traditional revenue streams.

I disagree. Newspapers were always terrible and full of heavily biased content. Same for most magazines.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#503

Post by chiaro » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 5:15 AM UTC

comex wrote: post #496

dreamfactory2 wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which significant cultural works have been ad-funded?

Do you think no TV shows were significant cultural works before the creation of cable TV?

While a good point, "good" (as in critically acclaimed) television is disproportionately from networks like HBO, BBC and Netflix that are supported by other means.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#504

Post by chiaro » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 5:18 AM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #97

logingone wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. Interesting. I'm the opposite. I've yet to encounter an ad that has a hope in hell of manipulating me at all. I couldn't be more dismissive of them. And if I encounter one too often my dislike of the company starts to grow. "It's show time, and you've b…

> I've yet to encounter an ad that has a hope in hell of manipulating me at all. If you know what "just do it", "the happiest place on Earth", "think different", or "the world's most advanced operating system" refer to, you've already been manipulated. A lot of ads are just about making sure you have a particular brand in mind and you're keenly aware of that brand's existence. Then, when time comes around to actually…

Huh, looks like I've underestimated how effective isolating myself from that is. I could only identify the first one of those slogans with any confidence.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#505

Post by mirimir » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 5:21 AM UTC

harlanji wrote: post #488

mirimir wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also love to see micropayments replace ads. I block nonessential scripts, ads and trackers for privacy, security and speed. I also block ads to avoid mental pollution. To use micropayments, I'd need to fund via Bitcoin or another anonymous method. Even cash in the mail, I suppose. Also, I'd want to buy per article, but I wouldn't want to substantively interrupt the flow of browsing, or think very much about t…

Since your point is privacy, do you know that Bitcoin is the opposite of private and anonymous? The entire ledger is recorded publicly. Granted if you obtain some via cash and are careful not to link your real identify with purchasing the coins, a btc purchase, attaining your goods, etc.; you can get away with using it to an extent, but good luck with modern ad profiling... one mis-step and your profiles are linked.

That's an excellent point. I should have specified "thoroughly anonymized Bitcoin". I used to buy Bitcoin with cash. Usually cash by mail. But now I earn as much as I need, anonymously. So there's no linkage to my real identity. Also, I use multiple project-specific personas. Each one has its own Whonix instances, and I transfer Bitcoin among them via various mixing services. Anyway, there's no possibility of profiles getting linked.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#506

Post by chiaro » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 5:23 AM UTC

philh wrote: post #233

jordigh wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Sell premium movie ticket prices that do not have ads (although I like previews, those can stay). Sell me a subscription to duckduckgo, payable in bitcoins or similar. Paywall every newspaper website. These are far more honest approaches in my view.

> although I like previews, those can stay Why is an advert for a film that you don't need to see, better than an advert for a product that you don't need to own?

It seems like the verisimilitude of the advertising medium to the product makes for the most innocuous marketing. So trailers are a "friendly" way to advertise films, like chapter extracts are friendly ways to advertise fiction books, or a tasting is a friendly way to advertise wine.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#507

Post by ForHackernews » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 5:33 AM UTC

BrendanEich wrote: post #141

jordigh wrote: post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

I get your point, and it is a good one. We have a micro payments channel to publishers, frictionless and anonymous, under construction, for folks who want no ads and who will pay. Other users than you will be able to mix and match, too: better and more private ads on sites they don't support, with a revenue share to these users that they can spend on sites they do. We aren't saying "only ads". We do see ads as a nece…

For the record, I (and I think many others like me) are totally fine with old-school display ads. You can show me all the ads you can get advertisers to pay for, and I might even click on them if they're presented in a relevant context (an ad for a game on a review of a similar game).

What I object to are invasive ad networks that try to track me all over the internet and build a comprehensive profile of my identity and online activities. As far as I'm concerned THAT is the problem browser companies need to be addressing.

I don't understand why Firefox/Apple/Microsoft haven't been pushing this angle. They could strike a blow against their rival Google, and for their users, in the same stroke.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#508

Post by mirimir » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 5:51 AM UTC

eevilspock wrote: post #481

dreamfactory2 wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which significant cultural works have been ad-funded?

Imagine if instead of libraries we made literature accessible to everyone by inserting ads, including "native ads" and product placements in the stories! Egads!

Excellent point. Libraries are public services. They're funded by private groups and governments. But it's not just about charity. There's an expectation of social benefit, which indirectly benefits even private funders.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#509

Post by mirimir » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 6:01 AM UTC

p4bl0 wrote: post #71

hapless wrote: post #16

It sounds like their plan is to block all ads, then sell the new ad inventory created by all the blank space on pages. Why on earth would users want this browser?

My understanding is that the replacing ads do not use trackers and do not breach your privacy. They could also be less invasive visually I guess, that would be acceptable. However I would prefer the acceptable ads to support the content creator, which is not the case here. So, no reasons to make the switch from a classical adblocker for me either. There are project which lets you curate where you accept ads and where…

Really? I guess that I didn't read carefully enough. If that's the case, how would it be acceptable? As I recall, a huge cybercrime bust some months ago involved malware that replaced native ads. Also, that was one of the widely criticized features of the malware that Lenovo was putting on its consumer notebooks. I suppose that this is at least legal because it's users who would be installing the browser. But it would still be iffy.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#510

Post by mirimir » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 6:07 AM UTC

Zarel wrote: post #423

BrendanEich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, and it is a good one. We have a micro payments channel to publishers, frictionless and anonymous, under construction, for folks who want no ads and who will pay. Other users than you will be able to mix and match, too: better and more private ads on sites they don't support, with a revenue share to these users that they can spend on sites they do. We aren't saying "only ads". We do see ads as a nece…

I hope you don't really mean "replace" ads. The ad-supported Internet is one of the few places where wealthy people and poor people are on equal footing, where children can still explore without parental permission, and adults can explore without constantly asking themselves "is this worth it?". I imagine micropayments will be exactly the sort of problem people decry in Facebook's Free Basics, where large companies c…

That's a good point. When I get into hating on ads, it's easy to forget about people for whom "micropayments" would not be so "micro". So the system would need a free option. Maybe just with ads. But how could ads be worth anything if only poor people viewed them? Maybe something like a distributed library system. Non-poor freeloaders might be problematic, however. Maybe add a delay for free access. Or reduce bandwidth to slow loading.