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What's Really Warming the World?

bloomberg.com

51–60 of 549 posts

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#51

Cool visualization. It's worth keeping in mind that the modeled data lines up with reality because it's supposed to. That's how you calibrate your model, by making sure it fits reality. The real trick is to see how well your model extrapolates from the data you have out into the future. As in, if you feed it data up to, say, 1990, will it correctly spit out 2015 temperatures that fit the reality of 2015, or will it s…

It's not my field, but I'd be very surprised if models were not also calibrated by extrapolating earlier known years and comparing to later known years.

You can really only judge models on days that was not yet available when they were created.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#52
Reading (audio book) Nate Silver's book on prediction, he looks at the predictions made by James Hansen in 1988 and IPCC a few years later.

He says the predictions were generally pretty good, maybe IPCC was a bit on the high side compared to what happened.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#53
What about agricultural water output?? Inverse of the deforestation curve already shown is also potentially convincing.

If you want to go spurious, you could also run a correlation between wind power generation.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#54
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

That's the human contribution to atmospheric CO2 compared to geological time scales.

Sorry I deleted my comment out from under your feet. He was responding to my exclamation about the large spike upward in CO2 levels on that first graph on the EPA site. After posting it, I deleted it because I answered my own question.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#55

This article only serves to stroke the ego of people who already believe that CO2 emissions cause global warming. It does nothing for people who already deny it. Evidence, no matter how strong doesn't serve to change the nature of a man. People would rather bend the logic and the evidence to fit their convenient perception of reality. Which brings me to the question: "What can change a nature of a man?" Imminent dang…

FWIW, my parents were rabid climate deniers, after they got cable and foolishly started watching Fox, porn for the ancient (but I digress..). Then Super Storm Sandy. Now when it is being discussed they sit silently.

Personally, it doesn't seem to me that one storm is all that persuasive, from a statistical standpoint. But we are not talking about reason here.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#56
post #8

In climate 130 years is not a long time. I wish these articles showed graphs with historical data that go back thousands of years so that I could see how, in a historical context, greenhouse emissions are affecting the world. I've only ever seen data from the 1900's, and it looks pretty hockey stick, but would be interesting to see fluctuations with the ice age(s) and local highs included. Edit: historical data is of…

I think in the context of convincing people that we urgently need to address the current climate problem (for economic, ecological, and security reasons), that might be distracting. Assuming there are probably other interglacial periods in Earth's long history that were a lot warmer than the current one[0], or maybe had lots more greenhouse gasses from some non-human source (if such a thing is geologically possible),…

Science shouldn't care about "convincing people that we urgently need to address the current climate problem" when it comes to testing their models. Scientists should test their predictions against all available usable data with impunity. Of course you don't want to write about that in your fancy Nature paper, you put that in a climate modelling conference paper or something.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#57

> "No, it really is greenhouse gasses." .. "See for yourself." Being patronising has such a great track record in turning hearts and minds, I'm glad they didn't stoop to such decadent clap track as "engaging with opposing arguments".

With the greatest respect, there are no opposing arguments with which to engage at this point. The issue is political, and not scientific.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists make mistakes as often as Economist writers do. I don't revere scientists i'm sorry.

You don't need to revere them. However, you should expect that an expert in a given field has almost certainly considered and answered any question a non-expert can think up within 10 minutes of contemplation on the said field. If you can come up with a question that starts with, "Have they considered the possibility that .....?" the answer is almost certainly going to be yes. This is more so when talking about a lar…

The problem is that these experts tend to follow the money. They get grants to show warming, so they cook the data to show warming. This would be much more difficult in a hard science, but "climate science" is not chemistry or physics.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#59

This article only serves to stroke the ego of people who already believe that CO2 emissions cause global warming. It does nothing for people who already deny it. Evidence, no matter how strong doesn't serve to change the nature of a man. People would rather bend the logic and the evidence to fit their convenient perception of reality. Which brings me to the question: "What can change a nature of a man?" Imminent dang…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aumann's_agreement_theorem

I think after sufficient debate, reasons behind one of the party's disagreement can be boiled down to things like:

- stubbornness

- conflict of interest

- lack of comprhension

The problem is if the party, that is logically correct, is in the minority, or if the other party has significant social strength, then a lot of social psychology (bandwagon, group think, validation, etc) also plays a role.

Re: What's Really Warming the World?

#60

Cool visualization. It's worth keeping in mind that the modeled data lines up with reality because it's supposed to. That's how you calibrate your model, by making sure it fits reality. The real trick is to see how well your model extrapolates from the data you have out into the future. As in, if you feed it data up to, say, 1990, will it correctly spit out 2015 temperatures that fit the reality of 2015, or will it s…

"The real trick is to see how well your model extrapolates from the data you have out into the future."

That is the most common way to show the modeller is not shamelessly overfitting.:-| Another way, though, is less common but not vanishingly uncommon: the model may be so much simpler than the data it fits that overfitting is not a plausible explanation. (Roughly there are too many bits of entropy in the match to the data to have been packed into the model no matter how careless or dishonest you might have been about overfitting.) E.g., quantum mechanics is fundamentally pretty simple --- I can't quantify it exactly, but I think 5 pages of LaTeX output, in a sort of telegraphic elevator pitch cheat sheet style, would suffice to explain it to 1903 Einstein or Planck well enough that they could quickly figure out how to do calculations. Indeed, one page might suffice. And there are only a few adjustable parameters (particle/nucleus masses, Planck's constant, and less than a dozen others). And it matches sizable tables of spectroscopic data to more than six significant figures. (Though admittedly I dunno whether the non-hydrogen calculations would have been practical in 1903.) For the usual information-theoretical reasons, overfitting is not a real possibility: even if you don't check QM with spectroscopic measurements on previously unstudied substances, you can be pretty sure that QM is a good model. (Of course you still have to worry about it potentially breaking down in areas you haven't investigated yet, but at least it impressively captures regularities in the area you have investigated.)

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