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What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

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Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#51

Post by wil421 »

Delmania wrote: post #16

What the next generation really needs lessons in: - Humility - Empathy - Patience - Self restraint and control - Mindfulness/Awareness - Disappointment - Resilience - Communication - Listening - Learning - Financial independence and literacy - Critical thinking - Problem solving - Self acceptance Then we can focus on what area the person can best contribute in. Not everyone is going to suited for a job in programming…

>Financial Independence

Do other countries teach much about personal finance in High School or even College? I think this is one area that is lacking in US curriculum, at least when I graduated high school a decade ago. Sure I could budget a project but was I able to make informed and responsible financial decisions in my early/mid 20s?

Students need to know the burdens that student loans are going to put on them after school ends. Parents may not know or remember what it was like to be a college kid trying to make ends meet. I saw many kids take heavy loans to live somewhat comfortably. Once they got "adult jobs" they still cant make ends meet after graduation due to loan repayments.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#52

Post by Delmania »

cousin_it wrote: post #45
Delmania wrote: post #16

What the next generation really needs lessons in: - Humility - Empathy - Patience - Self restraint and control - Mindfulness/Awareness - Disappointment - Resilience - Communication - Listening - Learning - Financial independence and literacy - Critical thinking - Problem solving - Self acceptance Then we can focus on what area the person can best contribute in. Not everyone is going to suited for a job in programming…

What the next generation really needs is an economy where everyone can make a decent living with a modest effort, without having to desperately "outcompete" other job seekers. The US had that kind of economy at some point. Since we haven't lost any arcane secrets since then, it must be still achievable today.

Your comment is why I mentioned financial literacy and financial independence. The economy is a huge system with many moving parts, so while I do agree with your statement, I think you'd get a better ROI by teaching people how to manage money.

I'm a huge fan of "Your Money or Your Life" and by extension the Financial Integrity program, which advocates for people to rethink their relationship with money as well teaches people how to make income regardless of employment status.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#53

Post by nmrm2 »

fuzzieozzie wrote: post #40

Here's the challenge faced by strong students. At a recent science fair, a strong 8th grader presented a simulation where you could fly a rocket around a plant, with the ability to change gravity, thrust, etc. I asked if he had explored the math (since this was a soluble problem.) The answer "The math is too difficult - I do it numerically, much easier that way." There is great advantage in re-using the work of other…

There are whole subfields of mathematicians who would agree in spirit with "I do it numerically, much easier that way" :-)

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#54

Post by nmrm2 »

Retric wrote: post #48
nmrm2 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partial credit on a math problem is pretty analogous to still getting paid even though your code has bugs.

... or designing a bridge that looks nice, but falls down in the wind. Don't get me wrong I think we could just teach LOGO or other pure educational language for a few months. The goal IMO should be critical thought not jobs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_(programming_language)

Well then, it's probably good that we don't have school children design our bridges :-)

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#55

Post by Delmania »

Retric wrote: post #48
nmrm2 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partial credit on a math problem is pretty analogous to still getting paid even though your code has bugs.

... or designing a bridge that looks nice, but falls down in the wind. Don't get me wrong I think we could just teach LOGO or other pure educational language for a few months. The goal IMO should be critical thought not jobs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_(programming_language)

I've reading the book, The Road to Character, and there's a chapter on Frances Perkins, the first female secretary of labor and one of the architects of the New Deal.

She had a BA in Chemistry, not because she was good at it, but precisely because it wasn't a strength of hers. Her teachers had the opinion that if she "tough enough to major in her weakest subject, she'd be tough enough to weather whatever life threw at her". Considering her achievements later in life, I think there's some merit to those thoughts.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#56

Post by nmrm2 »

S4M wrote: post #38

As someone who has a maths degree, I find it sad that most of the jobs advertised that require a background in maths are either jobs of Quants or Data Scientists.

Actuarial work and accounting are both very accessible to mathematics majors; you really just need one extra course worth of content (that you can work through yourself) to be prepared for an entry level position in those fields.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#57

Post by S4M »

nmrm2 wrote: post #56
S4M wrote: post #38

As someone who has a maths degree, I find it sad that most of the jobs advertised that require a background in maths are either jobs of Quants or Data Scientists.

Actuarial work and accounting are both very accessible to mathematics majors; you really just need one extra course worth of content (that you can work through yourself) to be prepared for an entry level position in those fields.

For me Actuarial work falls into "Quant" work, and accounting has nothing to do with maths.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#58

Post by jandrewrogers »

gizi wrote: post #44

According to the Curry-Howard correspondence, all mathematical proofs are actually programs. This is normal. A proof is a series of steps, and if you unambiguously describe these steps, a computer will obviously be able to execute them. Furthermore, since Alonso Church successfully proposed a Turing-complete axiomatization based on just functions (even numbers are just functions), a computer program is clearly a math…

All things that exist are mathematical objects and programs. Algorithmic information theory asserts that my cup of coffee is actually a program.

While mathematics is important to computer programming, for most practical purposes it is of limited utility unless you are inventing new computer science. Knowing how to use a relational databases correctly requires no formal set theory. Understanding how to build a massively parallel relational databases requires understanding the topological equivalents of relational operators, which is much more mathematical, but very few programmers design or build parallel databases.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#59

Post by gizi »

louden wrote: post #28

Not everybody needs to know how to do math beyond arithmetic (though the opportunity should be provided). The focus should be making sure everybody can understand the math, and especially statistics, they are presented with everyday.

Wow. You are projecting us back to the mid-12th century, before we got hold of Algoritmi's famous book: Kitab Al-Jabr, i.e., Liber Algebrae. Before that it was only arithmetic and bits and bobs of Euclid's Elements (=Geometry). That was all they had.

Re: What the Next Generation Needs Is Math, Not Programming

#60

Post by totalrobe »

Delmania wrote: post #52
cousin_it wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the next generation really needs is an economy where everyone can make a decent living with a modest effort, without having to desperately "outcompete" other job seekers. The US had that kind of economy at some point. Since we haven't lost any arcane secrets since then, it must be still achievable today.

Your comment is why I mentioned financial literacy and financial independence. The economy is a huge system with many moving parts, so while I do agree with your statement, I think you'd get a better ROI by teaching people how to manage money. I'm a huge fan of "Your Money or Your Life" and by extension the Financial Integrity program, which advocates for people to rethink their relationship with money as well teache…

Money management only really works when you make more than enough to afford the basics...half the population struggles just for housing, food, healthcare, and transportation.
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