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A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

bbc.co.uk

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Re: A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

#51

Post by fatjokes »

yuncun wrote: post #44
jrs99 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you also a minority in the US? Did you live in different areas in the US? Were you physically attacked because of your race or sexual orientation in Japan? Because if you're going by "casual daily encounters" that seem racist to you, do you ever wonder if a minority in 21st century america experiences the same?

I'm Chinese, I live in Kentucky. People are wonderful here. I've also lived in Los Angeles - never had a problem, but I did meet lots of second+ generation immigrants who complained a lot about perceived racism, that were really just small things that come with cultural differences. To be honest I find that white Americans are mostly much more self conscious about saying something offensive than Asians would be. Mayb…

Glad to hear your experience has been positive! I do wonder though if perhaps your desires are a bit different than those of second+ generation Asian-Americans. Whereas you see yourself as Chinese, and thus happy to be introduced to American customs and be the "foreign friend", Asian-Americans would find it somewhat insulting to be considered less than American.

Re: A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

#52

Post by kstenerud »

Nadya wrote: post #47
kstenerud wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, let's forget about all the nightclubs I couldn't go into, being physically barred by guards outside holding their crossed arms, saying "gaijin dame!". Let's forget about the complete lack of upward mobility in any office I worked in. Let's forget about the neighbors who completely shunned me until it was my turn as the block representative, at which point they criticized my lack of understanding of the bureaucra…

Strange how much our experiences differ. People in the countryside were far more 'racist' to me. I went to parts of the country where they rarely, if ever, see an 'outsider'. I would be stared at by wide-eyed children and shocked elders alike. I would be pointed at and noticed because I was different. In the city, I experienced none of this. I put 'racist' in quotes because, although I felt like an attraction, it was…

Yeah, my experience was similar in the countryside. But I don't consider being regarded as a curiosity as racism. They had no real preconceived notions as to how I would behave, and so our interactions were always cordial (though it helped that I was familiar with Japanese customs). I'd get invited to the local izakaya and we'd have a grand old time shooting the shit over sports, politics, etc. They'd want to know what I thought about pretty much everything (as would be expected when someone from an area you'd never seen before comes to town).

Re: A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

#53

Post by Terretta »

jpatokal wrote: post #3

> There is no word like hafu outside Japan, but I think we need it here. Welp, she's Japanese alright, she's even mastered nihonjinron : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihonjinron But more or less the same concept elsewhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapa (Hawaiian, and another loan from the English "half") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luk_khrueng (Thai for "half child") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%BAnxu%C…

Don't forget French métis, e.g. in Canada:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Métis_people_(Canada)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Métis

FWIW, I learned the word in French speaking Africa.

Re: A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

#54

Post by kazinator »

byuu wrote: post #28
hudstew wrote: post #19

There are a few things to keep in mind: 1) Ariana Miyamoto was chosen as Miss Japan by Japanese people. 2) The critics of Miyamoto are an extreme, vocal minority on Twitter and 2chan. 3) Although Japanese contestants often perform well at the international level, beauty pageants of this sort do not receive much attention within the country regardless of the contestant. 4) "Hafu" is a Japanese word derived from the En…

> it's a Japanese word, after all, and is not derogatory in Japanese That reminds me of 外人 (gaijin). Many will argue it's not a negative word, but when you hear people say it, it's almost never said in a very friendly, inclusive sort of way. It reminds me of the way white people in their 80s and 90s will use the word 'nigger', and the expectation is "that's just what everyone called them back then, it wasn't racist."…

外人 has a derogatory nuance, because it's curt (therefore not polite) way to say something which has more polite forms, such as 外国の方 (gaikoku no kata) which is a respectful way to refer to a non-Japanese person or people. Depending on context, of course. In some contexts and situations, there is no respectful way to point out someone's nationality, such as when it is completely unnecessary and irrelevant.

Re: A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

#55

Post by Nadya »

kstenerud wrote: post #52
Nadya wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange how much our experiences differ. People in the countryside were far more 'racist' to me. I went to parts of the country where they rarely, if ever, see an 'outsider'. I would be stared at by wide-eyed children and shocked elders alike. I would be pointed at and noticed because I was different. In the city, I experienced none of this. I put 'racist' in quotes because, although I felt like an attraction, it was…

Yeah, my experience was similar in the countryside. But I don't consider being regarded as a curiosity as racism. They had no real preconceived notions as to how I would behave, and so our interactions were always cordial (though it helped that I was familiar with Japanese customs). I'd get invited to the local izakaya and we'd have a grand old time shooting the shit over sports, politics, etc. They'd want to know wh…

If your Japanese is near-perfect you can tell them to let you enter the "no foreigners" nightclubs and bars claiming you were born and raised in Japan. Just pick a place as your hometown.

If it were for racist reasons, they wouldn't let you enter simply because you don't "look Japanese".

Not to say the issue doesn't exist at all. Just that it isn't prevalent. If it didn't exist, there wouldn't be this comedy sketch about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5qSm9U80

Although the scenario I experienced was that the waitress asked my Japanese friend what I wanted to order rather than asking me. Assuming I didn't speak Japanese.

At most places I ordered food at - they would ask me what I wanted directly. So I wouldn't say it's a common experience either. Just that it does happen and it's because few foreigners speak Japanese! It's a habitual thing, not a racist thing. It happened more in the touristy parts of Tokyo than anywhere else (even in the touristy parts of Kyoto!)

Re: A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

#56

Post by nandemo »

kstenerud wrote: post #22
hudstew wrote: post #19

There are a few things to keep in mind: 1) Ariana Miyamoto was chosen as Miss Japan by Japanese people. 2) The critics of Miyamoto are an extreme, vocal minority on Twitter and 2chan. 3) Although Japanese contestants often perform well at the international level, beauty pageants of this sort do not receive much attention within the country regardless of the contestant. 4) "Hafu" is a Japanese word derived from the En…

Yes, let's forget about all the nightclubs I couldn't go into, being physically barred by guards outside holding their crossed arms, saying "gaijin dame!". Let's forget about the complete lack of upward mobility in any office I worked in. Let's forget about the neighbors who completely shunned me until it was my turn as the block representative, at which point they criticized my lack of understanding of the bureaucra…

There's definitely xenophobia in Japan, and a lot of stereotyping, etc, and I'm not dismissing your experience, but:

I've never been denied entry to a nightclub or any decent establishment (kyabakuras don't count).

I've never noticed people crossing to the other side of the street because of me.

> I just thanked my lucky stars that I wasn't Brazilian.

I've heard that before but I've never experienced it. I'm Brazilian, but since I don't usually go around wearing Brazil's football jersey, I might as well be Indian to a Japanese passersby.

When people learn I'm Brazilian, the reaction typically ranges from positive to neutral (even when discounting for the tatemae).

I suppose things are different in areas with high concentration of Brazilians. But even in those places I'm pretty sure we aren't nearly as despised as certain 2 Asian nationalities, or even as much as American military.

In any case, I've witnessed and experienced way more racism in my own country than in Japan.

Re: A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

#57

Post by yuncun »

fatjokes wrote: post #51
yuncun wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Chinese, I live in Kentucky. People are wonderful here. I've also lived in Los Angeles - never had a problem, but I did meet lots of second+ generation immigrants who complained a lot about perceived racism, that were really just small things that come with cultural differences. To be honest I find that white Americans are mostly much more self conscious about saying something offensive than Asians would be. Mayb…

Glad to hear your experience has been positive! I do wonder though if perhaps your desires are a bit different than those of second+ generation Asian-Americans. Whereas you see yourself as Chinese, and thus happy to be introduced to American customs and be the "foreign friend", Asian-Americans would find it somewhat insulting to be considered less than American.

For disclosure, I lived most of my life in USA. I played high school sports here, and most of my friends are white.

That being said, youre definitely onto something. Why should I be pissed that there aren't Chinese folks in cinema when I know that China has it's own massive film industry? I know what it's like being part of a massive majority, but some other asian kids I grew up with might not; they only have America, and they would be more foreign in Asia than here. I feel kinda bad for them, because despite being Chinese, they'll only feel different, instead of proud of being part of a great civilization/history.

Re: A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

#58

Post by un_ »

Nadya wrote: post #55
kstenerud wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, my experience was similar in the countryside. But I don't consider being regarded as a curiosity as racism. They had no real preconceived notions as to how I would behave, and so our interactions were always cordial (though it helped that I was familiar with Japanese customs). I'd get invited to the local izakaya and we'd have a grand old time shooting the shit over sports, politics, etc. They'd want to know wh…

If your Japanese is near-perfect you can tell them to let you enter the "no foreigners" nightclubs and bars claiming you were born and raised in Japan. Just pick a place as your hometown. If it were for racist reasons, they wouldn't let you enter simply because you don't "look Japanese". Not to say the issue doesn't exist at all. Just that it isn't prevalent. If it didn't exist, there wouldn't be this comedy sketch a…

>claiming you were born and raised in Japan. Just pick a place as your hometown.

I can't say I have not considered this, but it requires "faking" yourself, even for just a minute. It also demands that you have a high degree of Japanese language.

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to expect people who do not look as though they know the language in a virtually homogeneous society to not know the language. I've heard that the people who encounter this "get around" it by demonstrating that they do know at least something.

I read a blog post once that language is one of the biggest barriers; seriously dedicating one's time to learning the language is something that many, many non-native speakers simply miss out on - and, in some cases, go onto assume that this response is because of xenophobia or racism.

I haven't been in Japan long enough to give my own anecdotal experience, though.

Re: A beauty contest winner making Japan look at itself

#59

Post by XzetaU8 »

kstenerud wrote: post #22
hudstew wrote: post #19

There are a few things to keep in mind: 1) Ariana Miyamoto was chosen as Miss Japan by Japanese people. 2) The critics of Miyamoto are an extreme, vocal minority on Twitter and 2chan. 3) Although Japanese contestants often perform well at the international level, beauty pageants of this sort do not receive much attention within the country regardless of the contestant. 4) "Hafu" is a Japanese word derived from the En…

Yes, let's forget about all the nightclubs I couldn't go into, being physically barred by guards outside holding their crossed arms, saying "gaijin dame!". Let's forget about the complete lack of upward mobility in any office I worked in. Let's forget about the neighbors who completely shunned me until it was my turn as the block representative, at which point they criticized my lack of understanding of the bureaucra…

Debito Arudou, is that you?
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