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Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

dolphin-emu.org

51–60 of 71 posts

Re: Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

#51

I think it is a mistake to license anything under a “or later version” license. If you do that, you licence your code under a license that you have never read, so how can you know that it serves your intentions? You are blindly licensing code under a licence that has yet to be written! In the GPL case, the Free Software Foundation states that “The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of th…

Even in the worst case scenario, it remains available under the original license, and that's not going to change. What is the worst case scenario, by the way? You could say it depends on who you are. One such scenario would be for developers who agree with the FSF's strong copyleft philosophy who are betrayed by a future hypothetical revision that removes all copyleft provisions to make it no stronger than, e.g., BSD…

I would like to know that too, since all the worst case scenario I can think of is also defining aspects of permissive licensed projects.

For example, a community could fork a project and license it under a new'er version, and then the original founder could suddenly want to incorporate the new changes but at the same time not want to use the new license, and the new community refuses request for a license to the old version. I don't think it ever has happen with a gplv2+ project, and it require a quite hostile community to begin with, but as a worst case scenario that would likely be it.

Re: Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

#52
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they _could_ do so. They already wrote legalese that says that they can't do so. This isn't merely an empty promise: it's already encoded into the text of the license. If a later version of the license is radically different and not in spirit of the GPL or imposes upon authors obligations that earlier versions of the GPL do not, then the current version of the GPL already says that later version would be invalid.

Would the anti-TiVoization wording in the GPLv3 count as "obligations that earlier versions of the GPL do not [impose]", and if so, does that mean that the GPLv3 is invalid?

The obligations are upon the authors and copyright holders. So, for example, a later version can't remove the no warranty clause, because that would burden the authors with providing warranties.

Re: Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

#53
post #38
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, GPL2 has all the stuff against tivoization already there (preferred form for modification -- if I can't modify it for actual hardware, it's not enough).

then why can you not modify your tivo? GPL2 hasn't had that problem present when it was written, and so tivo found a way to prevent practical modification, even tho they followed the letter of the license. In my eyes, most, if not all open source software should use AGPL, and dual license a commercial license offer for those people who want to buy it for modification. You should contribute, or pay up, else the traged…

Honestly, I'd sooner prefer to see everything licensed under BSD / MIT (Expat, X11) / ISC / etc. "copycenter" / "copyfree" licenses, for the simple reason that very few people in their right mind would use the AGPL at all (let alone in a project that doesn't involve writing network-facing software), and I'd rather see more software be compatible with as many free software licenses as possible. Aside from public domain, such non-copyleft licenses are a dream for writing free software, since the license doesn't get in the way of using such code in, say, Apache'd or GPL'd or MPL'd or whatever-L'd code.

(A)GPL, in other words, should be reserved for things that aren't meant to be reusable by other codebases. For everything that should be reusable, LGPL is about the limit for something being usable (and even that can be difficult to work with).

Re: Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

#54
post #44

I think it is a mistake to license anything under a “or later version” license. If you do that, you licence your code under a license that you have never read, so how can you know that it serves your intentions? You are blindly licensing code under a licence that has yet to be written! In the GPL case, the Free Software Foundation states that “The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of th…

I trust the FSF twenty years from now more than I trust someone today who doesn't use "or later version".

So you don't trust Linus Torvalds et. al.?

Re: Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

#55
post #20
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people (Linus Torvalds is a notable example) think that GPLv3's provisions that forbid things like locked down hardware are too much. They would rather be "permissive" and allow hardware that restricts what the user can do with it. What good is modifiable software if the hardware will refuse to run software if it's modified? Tell me, Mr Anderson, what good is a phone call when you are unable to speak?

Keep in mind that Linus's reasons behind licensing are often selfish ones: he simply wants as many people as possible contributing code to him.

The reasoning behind most things is selfish. Even Richard Stallman is subject to this; his motivation for the free software movement was when a colleague wouldn't share software changes that Stallman wanted/needed for his own use.

That said, the specific objection of Linux to the GPLv3 is twofold:

* There are thousands (if not millions) of contributors that would need to be contacted and would need to give consent to such a licensing change. I imagine some of those contributors might even be dead, and given the currently-draconian copyright laws of many nations (particularly the United States), this means that relicensing is that much more difficult.

* The GPLv3 would be a very hard hit for a lot of users of Linux in the embedded space, where a large number of "Things" in the "Internet of Things" aren't exactly designed to be field-programmable. The anti-TiVoization wording in the GPLv3 would cause a lot of pain there.

Re: Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

#56

I think it is a mistake to license anything under a “or later version” license. If you do that, you licence your code under a license that you have never read, so how can you know that it serves your intentions? You are blindly licensing code under a licence that has yet to be written! In the GPL case, the Free Software Foundation states that “The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of th…

Yeah, I'd like to know the legalities of this "we can rewrite the license in anyway we choose, and your code from 20 years ago will fall under its terms".

Once again the FSF political motives cast its license into dubious territory. Just stay away from the GPL.

Re: Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

#58
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I trust the FSF twenty years from now more than I trust someone today who doesn't use "or later version".

So you don't trust Linus Torvalds et. al.?

Guy who thought bitkeeper was a great idea? Guy who doesn't do anything about nvidia's blob, even though he could? Yeah, I don't trust him.

Re: Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

#59
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that while GPLv3 prohibits Tivoization, that is only one way to lock down hardware. For instance, the locked apps model of iPhone is OK under the GPLv3 (GPLv3 is incompatible with the App Store, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the locked hardware. That's due to the TOS for the App Store requiring the user agree to not reverse engineer and not redistribute apps they obtain from the store). The anti-Tiv…

Can you explain in more detail why you think trying to distribute a GPLv3 app on the App Store wouldn't run afoul of the terms you quoted: > you convey an object code work under this section in, or with, or specifically for use in, a User Product, and the conveying occurs as part of a transaction in which the right of possession and use of the User Product is transferred to the recipient in perpetuity or for a fixed…

Yes, it is because those terms only apply to conveyances that occur as part of a transaction in which the right of possession of the User Product is transferred.

Note that the GPLv3 defines "User Product" as "either (1) a 'consumer product', which means any tangible personal property which is normally used for personal, family, or household purposes, or (2) anything designed or sold for incorporation into a dwelling".

The iPhone is the "User Product". This can further be seen by considering the definition of "Installation Information": “Installation Information” for a User Product means any methods, procedures, authorization keys, or other information required to install and execute modified versions of a covered work in that User Product from a modified version of its Corresponding Source.

In short, the User Product is the thing you install the covered work (the GPLv3'd thing) on and run it on, which for an App Store would be the iPhone or iPad. Unless GPLv3 is not using "possession" and/or "transaction" in their normal meanings, there is no way to characterize purchasing and downloading an app from the App Store as being a transaction in which the right of possession of the iPhone is transferred. Since no definitions of possession or transaction are given in the license, we can assume their normal meaning.

I haven't raised this issue with the FSF because I don't see it as an issue. They are the ones that specifically put in the limitation that Tivoization only occurs for GPLv3 object code conveyed as part of a transaction where the right of possession of the User Product is transferred to the person receiving the object code. In general, considering how much time they spent on drafting this thing, I generally assume it means what it says and it says what they intended.

If they somehow botched the drafting and that is not what they meant, it doesn't really matter anyway because if it ends up in court and the parties disagree on how they interpret those parts, the court will go with what it says, not what the drafter claims they meant. So, my general policy (with all licenses, not just GPL) is to go with what they say, unless they are too ambiguous and then I avoid the covered software. (Actually, before I get to that point I first see if I can limit my use of the work to only those uses that do not require the permission of the copyright holder. If I can limit me needs thusly then I can ignore the license).

Re: Relicensing Dolphin: The long road to GPLv2+

#60
post #35
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are pro-patent protection, the FSF already released something radically different.

To be fair, most FLOSS license, including GPLv2 and BSD 2-clause and 3-clause, are (were?) usually considered to have an implicit patent grant, similar in spirit to the one in MPLv2 or GPLv3. I don't think that argument that one could use GPLv2 while thinking that software patent are good has that much ground.

On the "thinking that software patents are good" front, I think this bit from the GPLv2 preamble is pretty clear:

> Finally, any free program is threatened constantly by software patents. We wish to avoid the danger that redistributors of a free program will individually obtain patent licenses, in effect making the program proprietary. To prevent this, we have made it clear that any patent must be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all.

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