Live data from Hacker News

F-Droid Dropping Firefox

f-droid.org

51–60 of 69 posts

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#51
post #47
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>core values we would expect Who are the "we" you are speaking for? >the hacker ethic. You are trying to impose your own, personal values, a subset of vaguely defined hacker ethic, on Mozilla. However, Mozilla's stated "mission is to promote openness, innovation & opportunity on the Web." >The hacker ethic is about merit. It's about protecting ideas and valuing curiosity, wit and cleverness to spur innovation. Ideas…

"Why I won't mourn Mozilla" by Eric Raymond http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6688

This Eric Raymond? "Pederasty, at least, remains a common behavior among modern homosexuals. The `twink’ or compliant teenage boy (usually blond, usually muscled, depicted in the first dewy flush of postpubescence) is the standard fantasy object of gay porn."[0]

Or this Eric Raymond? "I believe, but cannot prove, that global “AIDS” is a whole cluster of unrelated diseases all of which have been swept under a single rug for essentially political reasons".[1]

Or this one,. Eric Raymond? "You picked an extremely bad example there; Turing was atypical in a way that damages your case. If you examine the actual circumstances of Turing’s exposure, you’ll discover that he was remarkably and willfully self-destructive about it. Outed himself, under circumstances where he could easily have covered and (as I read it) the cop was trying to look the other way. Still, I’m not “pro” Turing’s suicide, just refusing to blame anyone else for it. He made his choice and died. End of story."[2]

Such hacker ethic, so much aspiration for meritocracy.

[0]http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=26 [1]http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=184 [2]http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1046&cpage=1#comment-236592

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#52
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always go to Tools -> Add-ons and mass-update all your add-ons manually at once (Click on the gear icon drop down and select "Check for Updates"). These rules will not block that.

Most people will not do that; they (sensibly) expect automatic updates.

The type of privacy-conscious users/organizations who go to such a length in blocking these domains will also do the update manually or via their own internal update processes.

I'm not sure what most people do will have any relevance to the point I was trying to make.

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#53
post #51
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why I won't mourn Mozilla" by Eric Raymond http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6688

This Eric Raymond? "Pederasty, at least, remains a common behavior among modern homosexuals. The `twink’ or compliant teenage boy (usually blond, usually muscled, depicted in the first dewy flush of postpubescence) is the standard fantasy object of gay porn."[0] Or this Eric Raymond? "I believe, but cannot prove, that global “AIDS” is a whole cluster of unrelated diseases all of which have been swept under a single r…

I had no idea, thanks for the quotes, especially the Turing quote.

I hope fetchmail makes its choice too and dies. End of story.

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#54
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This Eric Raymond? "Pederasty, at least, remains a common behavior among modern homosexuals. The `twink’ or compliant teenage boy (usually blond, usually muscled, depicted in the first dewy flush of postpubescence) is the standard fantasy object of gay porn."[0] Or this Eric Raymond? "I believe, but cannot prove, that global “AIDS” is a whole cluster of unrelated diseases all of which have been swept under a single r…

I had no idea, thanks for the quotes, especially the Turing quote. I hope fetchmail makes its choice too and dies. End of story.

I had no idea either and was quite surprised to see the attack on Mozilla from the author of "The Cathedral and the Bazaar". Decided to dig deeper and lost a significant chunk of my naivete concerning a certain type of open source advocates.

The cherry on top. As far as I understand these are true Eric Raymond's beliefs:

"It is relevant here that I am a third-degree Wiccan, which means that I’m pretty experienced at designing rituals that invoke god-forms for specified purposes."[0]

[0]http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1573

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#55
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not necessarily spyware, but moving away from the community focus. 1. UI copying chrome 2. telefonica servers for video chat 3. Ads on your new-tab-page 4. Yahoo search deal 5. Adobe binary blob DRM installed and enabled by default. this is flash security holes all over again. 6. google binary blob DRM on android. mozilla have long gone from being a incubator the firefox project to try to be a startup coming up with…

How is the Yahoo search deal any different than the search deal with Google that they've had for years and years? And the EME module, good or bad, is not a security hole like Flash. The CDM modules are heavily sandboxed, preventing them from doing anything in the system besides talking to the browser. On Linux, it uses seccomp: https://lwn.net/Articles/332974/

I think the difference is that Google is a superior search engine, so in a world where technology trumps money it would be the default.* Of course, abiding by that would kill Mozilla's bargaining position, and Mozilla losing funding would suck for everyone, but...

* or DuckDuckGo (inferior but privacy conscious), but good luck with them funding Mozilla

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#56
post #51
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why I won't mourn Mozilla" by Eric Raymond http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6688

This Eric Raymond? "Pederasty, at least, remains a common behavior among modern homosexuals. The `twink’ or compliant teenage boy (usually blond, usually muscled, depicted in the first dewy flush of postpubescence) is the standard fantasy object of gay porn."[0] Or this Eric Raymond? "I believe, but cannot prove, that global “AIDS” is a whole cluster of unrelated diseases all of which have been swept under a single r…

So the guy speaks his mind. In a work environment, you'd get canned. In a group of close friends at a bar / playing xbox, I could imagine buds laughing at that.

...

Some people are eccentric. Some people get validation from saying shocking things and getting a reaction.

Gay men do both of the above, at least as much if not more than straight men. Most gays I know are the most thick skinned, provocative people. They don't want Special treatment or pity and in fact learned to get amused by people who gawk at them. Case in point, Folsom street fair in sf.

My point is, so maybe he thinks he is redpill. maybe he's being an idiot and speaking aloud. Maybe he has a lesson to learn, but he's still a hacker.

He'd have difficulty running for political office. But I'm not about to censor his thoughts.

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#57
Let me address some issues on this thread on the best way I can because I am really tired of all the FUD and attacks. I will first address the stuff mentioned on that changelog about the FDroid build of fennec and then I will talk a bit about Mozilla, Eich and what I think people are doing wrong in here.

  Removed: Tests [not sure about that]
  Removed: Crashreporter [tracking]
  Removed: Healthreporter (UI?)
  
All that stuff provides telemetry for Mozilla that helps in finding and addressing bugs. People complain about a website not working correctly on Firefox but disable all the reporting stuff and never fill a bug on bugzilla. That kind of thing is useful. The source code for that is available on github, you can check what is sent and decide if it is worth using it or not.

  Removed: Mediastreaming (requires non-free library: play-services) [google's binary blobs]
  
Users want stuff to work. I am not talking about users with a free software mindset that are willing to hop through unfortunate hops to get their system working. I am talking about the average non-technical non-aware-of-foss user which number in the millions world wide (billions?) They want their browser to be able to play multimedia content. If you don't want to use non-free multimedia then don't access mp3 and other patent encumbred content.

  Removed: Updater [tracking]
  
Another piece that you can check the code. Everyone wants an evergreen browser that receives patches, keeps its health in check and is kept up to date. There is no way of updating software without sending some data about the current software. Check the code and see if there is any sensitive information being sent and decide for yourself.

  Removed: EME/DRM [adobe's binary blob]
  
EME is one thing and DRM is another. They work together but they are not a single unity. Before EME/DRM you had proprietary unauditable DRM software running wild on your computing device. Now you have an open source sandbox that can be audited to make sure that the proprietary DRM blob can't escape and fetch personal fingerprint data from your computing device. If you don't believe that the EME/DRM sandbox included in your Firefox is the same as the one from the code, there are mechanisms for building your own and using it. And thats the important part: "If you are against DRM then don't using services that use DRM". Some people want to listen to music, watch movies and other multimedia on services that believe that DRM solves some stuff. EME/DRM solution protects their personal data while giving them the features needed to use such services. If you don't agree with DRM then you don't use those services. The DRM blob is downloaded when you use those services, if you're not using them then the blob is not on your machine and never will be.

The fight against DRM shouldn't happen inside the browser but in the users mindset and towards the service providers. The EME/DRM solution was created as a compromise, give the users what they want while trying the best solution to protect them. Let FSF and other FOSS entitites audit the EME/DRM sandbox. Let researchers try to pick personal data and fingerprints from the machine. Match that against the other solution which is non auditable. If all the effort and action placed into the hate machine against EME/DRM was instead directed at educating users and teaching about non-DRM services then EME/DRM would not be needed.

And that brings us to the topic of action. Mozilla is the only large player in the browser ecosystem that has all its code open, its roadmaps published, its processess available for public perusal and collaboration. You can't influence or be a part of Safari, Opera, IE, Edge and Chrome development. You can't verify, audit, help steer, be a part of what the companies behind those products want for the the web.

  THE WEB IS THE ONLY MASS COMMUNICATION MEDIA WHERE EVERYONE HAS A VOICE
  
Keeping the web free and open, made by everyone for everyone, is the mission of Mozilla. That mission passes through a lot of different efforts which you can help. Millions of people worldwide have no idea how to the web works and don't know how to produce content and make their voice available online.

The Mozilla Webmaker project helps teaching the web through workshops. Instead of spreading FUD and attacking people online, you can direct your energy into positive actions such as educating users on how to make the web their own and how to make their opinion count such as when talking about the DRM situation. The webmaker initiative goes beyond that with workshops and activities to teach about privacy, online rights, net neutrality, information credibility, programming. All that is open and in need of help. Educating users do more about the web than removing EME/DRM API hooks and sandbox.

Firefox is the only browser that has its source code completely open and where you can help steer the project. You can be a part of Mozilla and then join the thousands that are trying to steer the web towards the users. If you don't agree with some practice, then, instead of shouting on Twitter and Hacker News, join the mailing lists and discussions. Be a part of the process. Help.

Firefox OS is the only mobile operating system developed in the open and based on web technologies that are not controlled by a single entity. You can help us create a wonderful mobile system that brings the benefits of the open web in the hands of everybody. Instead of rooting and fighting about isolated closed proprietary islands, you can help steer our little web boat. Our low-cost (and low-specs :-P ) devices are bringing internet access to lots of people in emerging countries, with that there is information sharing, education, and other life transforming opportunities that bring positive social change.

Mozilla is what we make it be. As volunteers, employees, fans and users we can make it more than it ever was. Mozilla is also a project, an idea, that making a good quality software and solutions as a foundation/community we can rival companies and make the ideal of values over profit prevail on the web.

I see a lot of hate for all the decisions Mozilla makes. Apparently it is the fashionable trendy thing on the web to spread FUD instead of taking positive action and helping. The whole situation with Brendan Eich is one of those cases. Brendan is a normal human being like all of us. We all have our flaws, prejudices, qualities, dreams, and bad decisions. Everyone here has some opinion and action taken about such opinion that goes against something that is deeply important to some group. We're humans, we make mistakes. We're products of the zeitgeist of our formative years. We learn and change through time but yet we all make mistakes at the eyes of others and sometimes even to our own. Unlike many here, I've been around Brendan Eich couple times and he was always pleasant, supportive and energetic about the web. That is his passion and fight. A strong problem with the web is the echo chamber. Someone makes a mistake or something we all disagree and consider bad and that person is forever bound to suffer our hate. That kind of action leads us nowhere. Whats helps is education, empathy, showing "the other" why we thing our opinion is important and why we would think another course of action was correct. Dialog and comprehension makes the world a better place, pitchforks don't.

You all here, may you be FUDing/fear mongering or not, can help Mozilla, the Web, Brendan and everyone. You can join the cause of an open web though dialog and positive actions. You can help Mozilla better its code and actions. You can help teach people about the web and let them multiply their opportunities. You can help audit code, translate content, make us see the correct path when we're in the dark. You can help Mozilla fight for a web made of people and not of incompatible features and companies.

Thats what I am asking. Instead of flamewars and fighting Mozilla, join us, help us work, teach and learn with us and we'll all make a much better and interesting web.

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#58
post #57

Let me address some issues on this thread on the best way I can because I am really tired of all the FUD and attacks. I will first address the stuff mentioned on that changelog about the FDroid build of fennec and then I will talk a bit about Mozilla, Eich and what I think people are doing wrong in here. Removed: Tests [not sure about that] Removed: Crashreporter [tracking] Removed: Healthreporter (UI?) All that stuf…

The effort to try to change a massive project like Firefox to the better vastly exceeds the effort to rightfully complain and abandon it. Seeing the course of mozilla over the past half decade makes me doubt that one would have any chance to get them on the "right" track again. I hope there will be another phoenix, that does not assume everyone to be a dumb post-privacy tablet user

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#59
post #58
post #57

Let me address some issues on this thread on the best way I can because I am really tired of all the FUD and attacks. I will first address the stuff mentioned on that changelog about the FDroid build of fennec and then I will talk a bit about Mozilla, Eich and what I think people are doing wrong in here. Removed: Tests [not sure about that] Removed: Crashreporter [tracking] Removed: Healthreporter (UI?) All that stuf…

The effort to try to change a massive project like Firefox to the better vastly exceeds the effort to rightfully complain and abandon it. Seeing the course of mozilla over the past half decade makes me doubt that one would have any chance to get them on the "right" track again. I hope there will be another phoenix, that does not assume everyone to be a dumb post-privacy tablet user

If you think that creating a new browser from scratch is less effort than helping Mozilla then I believe that you're in for a big surprise.

Let me pose a simple honest question, if not Mozilla, then who? Which major browser vendor you see going in the direction you want? If no one is going there, then, what entity you think could create a succesful browser with the values you want?

Re: F-Droid Dropping Firefox

#60
post #45
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so correct. debian's Iceweasel is a little squabble about the logo not being licensed correctly. they only divert official version to add the -debianXXX when they backport security patches on the stable branch. They never removed anything. apart from branding. They even upstreamed the branding agnostic flags so they don't have to change even that! FDroid's fork is now a move against binary blobs. And copious trac…

> FDroid's fork is now a move against binary blobs. And copious tracking. They are taking back firefox (pun intended). From the announce: "It removes the proprietary binaries out of the official builds." [emphasis mine] What's the nearest thing for general Linux? I'm guessing Tor Browser without Tor? I didn't see anything specific in Arch/AUR repositories.

IceCat http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/
Post reply on HN