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Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

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Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#51

Post by intopieces »

zo1 wrote: post #10
neverminder wrote: post #6

> The United States has 5% of the world’s population but 25% of the world’s prisoners. This sums it up for me.

I find it disturbing how those two tiny stats "sum" it all up for you, yet you make no mention of the third and elusive stat that makes the biggest difference of all: "The percentage of criminals in the United States" Like I said, drawing and inference from the two stats you posted is disturbing because both of those stats say nothing of the actual amount of valid criminals/lawbreakers.

The point here is that the justice system is not just, that there are too many criminals not because we're a nation of people who like to do bad things, but because the system profits from making criminals out of people. If you believe that the system for imprisoning people is just, then I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this question:

Why are Americans so criminal? More than Iran, China, Russia, Syria, Saudi Arabia.... Why is it that Americans can't follow the rules? What is wrong with them?

Of course that assertion is absurd because, at its foundation, that logic gets very racist very fast.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#52

Post by mellavora »

jacquesm wrote: post #43
yummyfajitas wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among other things, our murder rate is higher than that of most other western nations. Assuming murder rate is a good proxy for other "valid" crimes (it's hard to hide a body), we would expect to have 5x the incarceration rate of the UK or France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

The murder rate is that high because of easy access to weapons that make murdering people relatively easy. Shooting someone is a lot easier than knifing someone, point-and-click.

Ummm, no.

IF this was true, we would see a correlation between gun ownership (or access) and murder rates. If anything, the correlation is slightly negative, both in the US and globally.

Where you DO see the correlation is inequality. In US states, using data from wikipedia, I find a 70% correlation between gini coefficients and homicide rates. The same is true globally.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#53

Post by zyx321 »

arethuza wrote: post #30
WDCDev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just private prisons, it's the correctional officer unions too. They benefit greatly from large prison populations.

I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_O... So they lobby to increase prison terms and to "enforce current drug laws". I suppose they should have the right to do that, but it still seems a bit odd to me!

>enforce current drug laws

That reads to me like it could mean "outlaw medical marijuana."

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#54

Post by pjc50 »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

I completely agree that we overcriminalize things and imprison far too many people in the U.S. I'm 100% on-board with this. It's our shame the way we treat non-violent offenders. A disgrace. But guys, nothing is ever 100% one way or the other, no matter how much you support it. So you have to look at differing points of view -- unless the objective is just to have a good rant. Here are the things that come to mind re…

The racism is not a red herring, it's the primary driver for the electorate demanding that the system be broken in the ways it is. It's used to argue that the victims of the system deserve it, and thereby to prevent change.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#55

Post by mellavora »

CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

Seconded.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#56

Post by sillygoose »

a3n wrote: post #47
sillygoose wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this widespread misconception that there are things the police can't do to you because some text somewhere says so. In reality, it's just a question of what they want to do, and whether they can get away with it. For example, if an officer insists on seeing your ID even if the rulebook says you don't have to show it, he can escalate until he gets his way. A police officer can saw off your leg and feed it to s…

There's a saying among cops, "You may beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." In other words, they can harass you all they want, with impunity. "Oh, he was innocent? Well, darn."

Yep, and we're guilty of whatever bullshit crime they accuse us of, until we somehow prove we're not.. from jail, after having all our accounts seized.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#57

Post by maze-le »

chefkoch wrote: post #50
struppi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC, in Austria, police CAN ask you about your name and home address at any time, and they can even bring you to the police office if they don't believe you and you don't have an ID to prove it. Even though we don't have an "Ausweispflicht" like Germany, having an ID with you can be a good thing in this situation. They are not allowed to search you without a reason (In theory. I heared that they might just say "I th…

"Ausweispflicht" in Germany only means you have to own an id card or passport, not that you must carry it all the time.

Yes, that is true. Interestingly most Germans I know don't even know that, and think everyone has to carry an ID with them. This is really a common misconception.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#58

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

The drug war is a direct consequence of the Warren Court reforms of the 1960s. Equal Protection and Disparate Impact made illegal many local laws and policing methods that had worked to maintain order. Prosecutors needed new tools to get criminals behind bars, hence the war on drugs.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#59

Post by brianlweiner »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #41
tim333 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is 'criminal' is fairly arbitrary in many cases. Say you sell some hash to a friend. Legal in some states, can lead to 30 years in some others, generally not a huge crime in the sense of harming others.

Find me one specific example of a person in state or federal prison for small time marijuana dealing or possession. No other crimes involved. Doesn't happen. Often, the DA will structure a plea bargain on drug or weapons posession (over a long list of more serious charges) because those are very easy to prove. This idea that the prisons are full of good guys caught up in the system is detached from reality. Most guys…

Three strike laws in certain states can result in long prison sentences despite relatively minor crimes being committed - including simple possession - http://www.lao.ca.gov/2005/3_strikes/3_strikes_102005.htm#cr... justice system

Furthermore black offenders receive sentences that are longer than white offenders - http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873244320045783044...

And white people are significantly less likely to be arrested for drug possession, despite usage rates being fairly similar - https://www.aclu.org/news/new-aclu-report-finds-overwhelming...

A prisoner deserves to be sentenced for the crime they were convicted of, not for any possible crimes that we think they may have committed. To behave otherwise is completely antithetical to a society that supposedly values justice

So no, prisons aren't "full of good guys", but they're full of people serving sentences that are longer than any rational policy would dictate who have been prosecuted in a system that has been shown time and again to have deep issues with bias and inequality.

Not to mention the violence and overcrowding endemic in the prison system. It should be a source of national shame that it has continued this long without real reform.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#60

Post by Bostonian »

CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

Legalize which drugs? Only marijuana, or also crack, heroin, or LSD? If a certain drug causes brain damage and makes its users invalids, who will support them?

I think a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done for each drug.

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