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PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

quirksmode.org

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Re: PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

#51

Post by joe_the_user »

Wow,

It seems like everyone looks stupid now. Apple for the annoying process of the app store and developers for wanting 99 cents/each for a "silly puzzle game that would have to be free on the web".

Now, what would happen if you had a big walled-garden where each user paid a fixed-fee for unlimited access to everything and each developer was paid per-use and by rating?

Sooner or later, this model (all-you can eat content for a fixed fee with some of the fee going to content developers) will replace the "free" web and app-store models. The web is close to this already but the fees aren't shunted quite enough to content developers.

Re: PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

#53

Post by gojomo »

It also supports JavaScript geolocation, which is (I hope) only the first step towards true device APIs that will give JavaScript developers access to phone functionality such as the camera, text messaging, the address book, and more. I’m assuming Apple is working on all that because it’s the next logical step.

I was sympathetic to Apple's original line about iPhone apps -- that web apps were iPhone apps -- under this same assumption, that over time MobileSafari would get all these capabilities and more.

But those have been slow to materialize, and now Apple is making a bunch of money via the App Store. Why add things to MobileSafari that remove Apple's cut of sales? Or otherwise splinter the billing/in-app-purchasing system? Or confusingly 'duplicate functionality'? The assumption that Apple is a "true believer" in web apps becoming as capable as App Store apps may no longer be safe.

Going strictly by Apple's self-interest, it would be equally valid to predict that Apple may, over time, add various kinds of policy or remote-driven cripple-switches to MobileSafari -- so the web isn't a back-door offering 'inappropriate content' or otherwise competing with the App Store.

Of course Google is a "true believer" in web apps. Any bets on when we'll see a Chrome browser for the iPhone?

Re: PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

#54

Post by blasdel »

ubernostrum wrote: post #34
ulf wrote: post #6

While he basically raises some valid points, he ignores two critical ones: 1) With the appstore being the one authority to get apps on your iPhone, you will automatically get much less traction using the web 2) The appstore makes it VERY easy for the devs to actually get paid. If you launch your app web-only, you have to incorporate the whole payment process yourself, which sucks. Catch 22...

Counterpoint: Apple releases a highly-portable computing platform (iPhone) and initially says "if you want to develop for it, all you have to do is write web applications". Developers rage against the irrational locking down of the system. Google releases a highly-portable computing platform (Chrome OS) and initially says "if you want to develop for it, all you have to do is write web applications". Developers fawn o…

1) ChromeOS has Google's NaCL baked in -- you can still build native x86 or ARM code to blit to a framebuffer, just with a browser as the window decoration.

2) Your webapp for ChromeOS does not need to be specialized -- you don't have to account for fat-fingered multitouch on a small fixed screen.

Re: PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

#55

Post by dgallagher »

mattmaroon wrote: post #31
SamAtt wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You left out one important point that he mentions but doesn't give enough credit to... 3) There's still a lot of features on the iPhone that you can only access through native apps. He claims most of the apps he has could be web apps. But I just opened my iPhone to the Top 25 paid apps and 7 out of the top 10 could only exist as native apps (and the other three are debatable but in theory you could write them in Java…

All sufficiently popular platforms trend towards games. Graphics alone makes the app store a necessity.

When carrier bandwidth allows for it in ~5 or more years, streaming live content to cell phones might become an option (3D games over OnLive, etc). But it's likely going to be a while before carriers can support this, given the need for low latency and high-bandwidth for many games to provide a good end-user experience.

Streaming live video en-masses would likely exist* far before streaming games, given you can buffer video to compensate for latency. Games couldn't be easily buffered as they require instant feedback between button-presses and what's seen on the screen.

*Streaming video does indeed exist for cell phones, but not on a mass-scale, at least in the United States.

Re: PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

#56

Post by allenbrunson »

SamAtt wrote: post #15
ulf wrote: post #6

While he basically raises some valid points, he ignores two critical ones: 1) With the appstore being the one authority to get apps on your iPhone, you will automatically get much less traction using the web 2) The appstore makes it VERY easy for the devs to actually get paid. If you launch your app web-only, you have to incorporate the whole payment process yourself, which sucks. Catch 22...

You left out one important point that he mentions but doesn't give enough credit to... 3) There's still a lot of features on the iPhone that you can only access through native apps. He claims most of the apps he has could be web apps. But I just opened my iPhone to the Top 25 paid apps and 7 out of the top 10 could only exist as native apps (and the other three are debatable but in theory you could write them in Java…

The fact that iPhone web apps can't access iPhone hardware comes up all the time here. It seems odd to me that nobody mentions the fact that, with not much work, it's possible to create an iPhone browser that can give a website access to most of the iPhone hardware through javascript: gps/location services, the camera, the photo library, the music library, the accelerometer, and so on. One enterprising developer wrote an iPhone browser that does just that. here it is: http://www.big5apps.com/

I can't really recommend that app, though. Most of it is open source, so you can go see for yourself that the code is terrible. The app is ugly, leaks abound, and so on. The guy really doesn't know objective-c. I became aware of it because I have a contracting client that wanted to use that app, discovered it was terrible, and paid me to write a better one.

I think this is an idea that is ripe for the picking, but I can't see how, really. I have most of such a browser written. Who can think of a way to monetize this?

Re: PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

#57

Post by jimboyoungblood »

patio11 wrote: post #16
edd wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first point is so valid. Having created a webapp for the iPhone myself there really are few places I can go to put my webapp on a stage that anyone cares about. If someone knows of any I honestly would love to know where they are.

Organic SEO. (Lots of work. Requires savvy. Not guaranteed. Stupendous ROI if you do it right.)

Example(s)?

Re: PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

#58

Post by pvandehaar »

Summary: "Webapps are almost as good as Native Apps in many ways."

The author reveals no advantages of webapps over a good AppStore that allows 3rd-party software sources. He is simply angry that he doesn't get enough attention as a web developer, not especially different from the complaint of a three year old child, though with the language of a nine year old.

Re: PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

#59

Post by natch »

Padraig wrote: post #36
natch wrote: post #35

A native app with a web UI can present content even when there is no network connection... My respect for quirksmode just fell, a lot. The willful ignorance he shows in his article is staggering. And the rude delivery doesn't help either.

Wilful ignorance indeed! You don't need a native web app to present content without a network connection. You just need to use the HTML 5 offline application cache thats been in Mobile Safari since iPhone OS 2.1

Heh, thanks for the well-deserved and well-delivered smackdown. I'll concede that point, but obviously there are others that have been mentioned.

Re: PPK: "Apple is not evil. iPhone developers are stupid."

#60

Post by qeorge »

jimboyoungblood wrote: post #57
patio11 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Organic SEO. (Lots of work. Requires savvy. Not guaranteed. Stupendous ROI if you do it right.)

Example(s)?

Its hard to give examples of successful SEO, because you don't want extra competition in your niche. As a result, all we (SEOs) can offer for free is general advice on how to do it yourself.

That said, I've been wanting to write a free guide to SEO aimed at HN-like companies, because I think its important. However, the response from HackerNews to anything involving SEO is so harsh, I've felt it would be a waste of my time. If that's not the case, please let me know.

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