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Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

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Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#51

Post by klenwell »

jobu wrote: post #39
heapcity wrote: post #12

Pres. Eisenhower gives dire warning: 'We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether saught or unsaught by the Military Industrial Complex' (Jan. 17, 1961) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

Most people view the term "Military Industrial Complex" from the view of the primary definition of complex - "consisting of many different and connected parts". It seems however, that Eisenhower intended that phrase to use the psychoanalytic definition of complex - "a related group of emotionally significant ideas that are completely or partly repressed and that cause psychic conflict leading to abnormal mental state…

It seems to me the two complexes reinforce one another. Something akin to Sinclair's observation: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it."

But that is in interesting point that you make. I had never considered it from that angle before. Works either way for me. And even better together. Eisenhower: America's Derrida.

Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#52

Post by fweespeech »

cies wrote: post #16

How again is "lobbying" different from "legalized corruption"? [serious]

> How again is "lobbying" different from "legalized corruption"? [serious]

Lobbying in, say, the UK isn't legalized corruption.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/world/europe/with-campaign...

> LONDON — There is no political advertising on television or radio in Britain. Fund-raising and spending are strictly limited. Tight elections can turn on a relative handful of votes in a small number of competitive parliamentary constituencies.

If you don't need to buy broadcast ads for 6 figures during campaign season, there is alot less power in the hands of a lobbyist.

Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#53

Post by mmrasheed »

I find recent NSA related craps utterly outdated, dull and juvenile. At this point, distinction between news on NSA's secret projects and government's public release of secret documents seems blurry and overlapping.

NSA has been working on quantum computing for decades. Recent success of both Israel and NSA in harnessing quantum computing for practical purposes is well known for at least couple of years. When quantum computing can blow off present mathematical proof of concepts in security, why waste time talking about decade old NSA technology? Why not discuss about the bleak future of information security? Why not prepare for the coming years?

Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#54

Post by jeffmcjunkin »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #23
rtpg wrote: post #3

The problem with most of these examples is that all of these "NSA contractors" are just giant multi-billion dollar revenue companies. I'm sure MSFT is an NSA contractor on one level, but most people would find it weird to classify Microsoft as "A NSA contractor". This is just a consequence of powerful people happening to have a lot of money to invest and thus becoming board members for companies in domains in which t…

I agree completely. It seems that the most powerful tool most people have in their debate toolbox is "you have a financial interest in X, so your opinion on X must be invalid". But this is a logical fallacy. It's incorrect dismiss a study on the Widget industry just because it was performed by scientists from Widgets-R-Us. Who else is going to do the study? Who has more understanding of widgets than those very scient…

Phrased more broadly - everyone has biases in their opinions. Make sure you know what their bias is and take it into account when listening to them.

Widgets-R-Us has a strong financial incentive to make their Widgets study as advantageous to them as possible. Widgets-R-Evil has a strong incentive to blast Widgets-R-Us's study as invalid and make their own study as negative as possible, since their reason for existence (assumedly) is convincing people that Widgets are evil.

The truth is A) usually without a direct incentive of its own and B) usually somewhere in the middle.

Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#55

Post by happyscrappy »

istvan__ wrote: post #47
cies wrote: post #16

How again is "lobbying" different from "legalized corruption"? [serious]

It is not. This is why US is not ranked high on any corruption list, while maintaining the highest level if private financial influence not only in the lawmaking but also in national security. These are very dangerous, and as the Princeton study points out it threatens democracy in the long run very much. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPag...

Some country the size of Massachussetts can rank better but let's ignore Italy and Greece.

Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#56

Post by marcosdumay »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #23
rtpg wrote: post #3

The problem with most of these examples is that all of these "NSA contractors" are just giant multi-billion dollar revenue companies. I'm sure MSFT is an NSA contractor on one level, but most people would find it weird to classify Microsoft as "A NSA contractor". This is just a consequence of powerful people happening to have a lot of money to invest and thus becoming board members for companies in domains in which t…

I agree completely. It seems that the most powerful tool most people have in their debate toolbox is "you have a financial interest in X, so your opinion on X must be invalid". But this is a logical fallacy. It's incorrect dismiss a study on the Widget industry just because it was performed by scientists from Widgets-R-Us. Who else is going to do the study? Who has more understanding of widgets than those very scient…

No, you are wrong.

We don't live in a perfect boolean world, and "you have a financial interest on X" is a completely valid reason to dismiss everything you have to say about X.

And what's even more valid is the rationale implied at this article, that since only people with financial interest on X are defending it, it follows that X is bad and you should be against it.

Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#57

Post by rmxt »

happyscrappy wrote: post #55
istvan__ wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not. This is why US is not ranked high on any corruption list, while maintaining the highest level if private financial influence not only in the lawmaking but also in national security. These are very dangerous, and as the Princeton study points out it threatens democracy in the long run very much. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPag...

Some country the size of Massachussetts can rank better but let's ignore Italy and Greece.

You say this as if lobbying/corruption doesn't happen from the top (federal) to the bottom (local/city) in the United States... We don't need to compare the federal government's issues with "security" spending to European countries to see how there are questionable spending practices at the state level, e.g. public works contracts.

Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#58

Post by happyscrappy »

mmrasheed wrote: post #53

I find recent NSA related craps utterly outdated, dull and juvenile. At this point, distinction between news on NSA's secret projects and government's public release of secret documents seems blurry and overlapping. NSA has been working on quantum computing for decades. Recent success of both Israel and NSA in harnessing quantum computing for practical purposes is well known for at least couple of years. When quantum…

>Why not discuss about the bleak future of information security? Why not prepare for the coming years?

Because then you have to acknowledge that threats exist that are not the US government, and that is not kosher because the goal is to reduce US power.

Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#59

Post by happyscrappy »

rmxt wrote: post #57
happyscrappy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some country the size of Massachussetts can rank better but let's ignore Italy and Greece.

You say this as if lobbying/corruption doesn't happen from the top (federal) to the bottom (local/city) in the United States... We don't need to compare the federal government's issues with "security" spending to European countries to see how there are questionable spending practices at the state level, e.g. public works contracts.

Well that is going to be a hard argument to sell because so many laws are local and you can't really successfully condemn every small jurisdictions decisions without condemning the people that voted for them.

Re: Many of the NSA’s Loudest Defenders Have Financial Ties to NSA Contractors

#60

Post by arprocter »

fweespeech wrote: post #52
cies wrote: post #16

How again is "lobbying" different from "legalized corruption"? [serious]

> How again is "lobbying" different from "legalized corruption"? [serious] Lobbying in, say, the UK isn't legalized corruption. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/world/europe/with-campaign... > LONDON — There is no political advertising on television or radio in Britain. Fund-raising and spending are strictly limited. Tight elections can turn on a relative handful of votes in a small number of competitive parliamenta…

In the UK there are 'Party political broadcasts'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_political_broadcast

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