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The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

nautil.us

51–59 of 59 posts

Re: The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

#51
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but I'm perfectly content to live in a world where people experience an intellectual and social disadvantage for believing in nonsense.

Hang on. You have admitted that you didn't even know the meaning of the sentence that you have been defending until I posted the meaning of the word 'benighted', while criticizing those who were upset by it for holding faith based positions? Sorry, but that is hilarious. (edited slightly for clarity)

I looked it up before I defended it. My telling you that I just learned it wasn't really a relevant point until I mentioned it.

Re: The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

#52
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rhetoric is a two way street. It can be just as damaging as it can be beneficial. Also, the observation that almost anyone other than a creationist would be able to get past a line that specifically insults creationists, is not that surprising. edit - It is a great article, that for the most part deals with a very complex subject really well. I am just saying that the philosophical point scoring in the introduction a…

Maybe I'm being unfair, but I'm perfectly content to live in a world where people experience an intellectual and social disadvantage for believing in nonsense.

"I'm perfectly content to live in a world where people experience an intellectual and social disadvantage for believing in nonsense."

I truly believe that you'll get to experience that world someday. However, you needn't wait. There are several countries today that kill and shame those who don't think like them. Go try one of them and report your success.

Re: The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

#53
post #2

A quote from the article: "You don’t have to be a benighted creationist ..." Can we please keep these type of articles off HN please? I don’t come here to be insulted. I have other sites for that! Sir Isaac Newton was not a simple nor stupid man and he gave honor to the Creator. Just because science has not figured God out, does not deny His existence. A whole lot of reasons for what allowed the Internet, HN, science…

Are you crediting the cultural consequences of McCarthyism and anti-Communism in the 1940's and 50's with most major technological improvements since then?

Re: The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

#54
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't say he learned it when you posted it, did he? And even so, the contextual value of the word would be obvious in context.

No, but if you post a dictionary definition of a word and someone's next reply contains an aside that they learned the definition of a new word today, from context it usually means they learned it there and then. As for the article, without knowing the definition of 'benighted', there are several different meanings available. For example, say it meant 'dedicated'. That would fit perfectly, but the phrase would then h…

No, that fits pretty fine too.

You're jumping at shadows, man. Chill.

Re: The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

#55
This is redundancy: many different sequences (genotypes) give the same shape (phenotype). Redundancy can be boring, such as non-significant whitespace in C code: different spacing compiles the same (and gives the same behaviour).

It is also local, in that equivalent genotypes are just one step away - add or remove a space - and you can continue with further steps. So a set of equivalent genotypes/programs are connected by being adjacent (one "step" away). [\tangent maybe not all the equivalent genotypes are connected]

But this is interesting redundancy, because some of those equivalent genotypes are just one step away from dramatically different phenotypes. This doesn't happen with C whitespace (though maybe it happens with other equivalent implementations, different names, ways of looping, but I can't think of an example]

Using the metaphor in the article, one set of equivalent connected genotypes is like a network of roads, on which you can take steps to move around the system without penalty, because they are all equivalent and each step is neutral. Extending the metaphor for the "interesting" aspect, another set of equivalent connected genotypes with a dramatically different phenotype is like a railway network. Mostly, the two networks are separate, but sometimes, they are very close, so that in one step, you switch to another network, like a railway station. [For correctness, we disallow level crossings, because there both road and rail would have the same phenotype. We could disallow any crossings, making it planar, or introduce the third dimension and have bridge crossings, where the position in 3D is the genotype.]

There would be a great many such networks, with distinct phenotypes.

There would be networks that have no adjacency; but it might still be possible to reach them by moving to intermediate networks (e.g. travel by car then rail then bicycle path then footpath etc), provided the phenotypes of those intermediate networks were neutral or advantageous.

I like both the article's hypotheses: that all complex systems have this property; or that evolved biological systems only have it because evolution is faster with it.

2. The second appeals to me because it helps explain accelerating evolution by the establishment of platforms: e.g. the body-plan collection of genes may have taken a long time to come up with, but once it did, body plan diversity exploded. Though the article complains about the number of body plans possible, it's dramatically fewer than all possible raw sequences. It's configuring a body-plan instead of coding it from scratch. Having many different possibilities is good as it makes it a powerful expressive platform - perhaps like an algebra or programming language, once it gets complex enough, it is very powerful. The key quality is that within this configuration language, the density of "useful" results is higher than without it [e.g. a random configuration is more likely to be useful than random raw code - the platform is somehow specialized to its purpose]

Similarly, perhaps this system of RNA with this quality was not the first to evolve, but several arose... and this is the one that took off.

1. But maybe all complex systems have it too, provided they have redundancy. Perhaps, if there are many sets of connected equivalent genotypes, and each set is very large, there are likely to be many adjacencies between networks? Note: It's not necessary for all networks to have adjacencies, just enough of them. You could imagine varying these properties of the system (number and size of networks, relative to the total space) and come up with parameters that give "enough" adjacent networks [though I'm not quite sure how to define "enough".]

My feeling is that getting those parameters good enough by chance might be pretty rare - something that could take a few billion years over the surface area of a planet to have reasonable chance at...

Re: The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

#56
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that "[coherent-under-consequential-reflection] nice makes right" is a fairly accurate description of moral affairs, if not of epistemology.

I disagree vehemently.

Ok. Could you please disagree in detail?

Re: The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

#57

This is redundancy : many different sequences (genotypes) give the same shape (phenotype). Redundancy can be boring, such as non-significant whitespace in C code: different spacing compiles the same (and gives the same behaviour). It is also local , in that equivalent genotypes are just one step away - add or remove a space - and you can continue with further steps. So a set of equivalent genotypes/programs are conne…

tl;dr having multiple genotypes for the same phenotype is inevitable if the genotype space is smaller than the phenotype space; the mapping is not injective (it's not one-to-one); a projection.

Making this local, where adjacent points map to the same phenotype can be trivial, e.g. ignoring one dimension of a 10 column row in a database. But an interesting local mapping seems much rarer: where you can change one dimension in one step (and still get the same phenotype), then change a different dimension in the next step, etc, so that the path through space is not just one dimension varying, but a jagged winding path.

This is important for the "path" (or connected genotypes with the same phenotype) to have a large surface area, which increases the chance of contact with the path of another phenotype (and that phenotype has some usefulness).

That's the main problem: that there be adjacency "transfer points" between useful phenotypes. It seems to me that in the huge exponentially large spaces we're talking about, they would be very rare, unless the mapping had some special qualities (which would make sense if the mapping itself had been selected by evolution - so the "selfish gene" is only secondarily in charge; the mapping is the primary one - and possibly, mutation strategies, like sex, and other as-yet undiscovered ones, that might be analogous to factoring or expanding, so the genotype can change dramatically in one step, but remain equivalent).

Re: The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

#58
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science describes reliable models of reality. Its language is mathematics. Religion wonders about the ultimate meaning of such models. Its language is philosophy. The first religions bundled model and meaning out of necessity. However, post-Roman Christians were keen logicians and experimenters who laid the foundation of the modern sciences. They would be ashamed of creationists' shallowness.

> Science describes reliable models of reality. Its language is mathematics. That's not right. It's language is... well, language. Including, but not limited to, mathematics. > Religion wonders about the ultimate meaning of such models. Its language is philosophy. I don't think this is really being fair to philosophy. I do view religion as a kind of proto-philosophy. Philosophy is what religion should have been.

Sorry for the late reply. I like your choice of words, proto-philosophy. I think of religions of the past as proto-philosophy and proto-science (the world is flat and at the center of the universe, Heaven is structured so and so, ...). But you're right, my framework does not fully reflect the complexity of modern faith. Unlike trained priests, the overwhelming majority of believers don't learn philosophy to challenge their own beliefs.

imho too many people consume religion like painkillers for the big questions. Without a critical eye, faith becomes anti-philosophy.

Re: The Strange Inevitability of Evolution

#59
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree vehemently.

Ok. Could you please disagree in detail?

I was trying to think of a way to do so without writing several thousand words on the subject. But basically, it comes down to this:

Conflict avoidance is not conflict resolution.

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