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I Was an Animal Experimenter

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#51

Post by dhmholley »

Luc wrote: post #48
pvaldes wrote: post #46

Puppet activists playing god and destroying the lives of the young researchers whereas everybody treat them as the great hero of the week. Is a problem, yes. To be young an naive and doing silly things trying to impress your crush is understandable and even likeable. But, when your love plan involves to 'morally torture' or destroy lives of other young girls and guys, and millions of dollars in stuff, papers should a…

> Labs should have sticks with "Is the Talidomide, stupid" printed in uppercases, and those type of articles should probably be answered also with the same slogan. This made me smirk, because Thalidomide could be the poster child for the ineffectiveness of animal testing.

And unfortunately it often is used that way, by people who don't understand that animal testing would have caught the birth defects had it been tested on pregnant animals (advocating, if anything, for more thorough animal testing, not for animal testing's ineffectiveness). Of course people aren't interested in this, they're just after the conclusion that supports their preconceived ideas.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#52

Post by dnautics »

jonchang wrote: post #10

I can say with confidence that this sort of thing would never occur in a modern research laboratory. Note that standards for ethical experimentation on animals (including humans) hadn't really appeared until the 70s and 80s. A couple of points here: Any type of animal experimentation must be accompanied by an IACUC protocol that is approved by a committee, typically at least 3 people, and usually including a veterina…

I am fairly certain that there is an ongoing experiment at the NIMH in Bethesda where they are creating lesions (scooping out sections of their brain) in Rhesus Monkey brains and observing behavioral effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15509386

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18410164

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/11902612_Effects_of_...

I personally am about to embark on a scientific project that ultimately leads to animal experimentation. It's the development of a chemotherapeutic. Perhaps it's a self-serving thing to say, but I think that's one of the few places where animal experimentation makes sense; even the next-generation anticancer drugs, which recruit the immune system, don't make sense to be tested in mice, because in order to transplant the cancer cells, you have to start with immune-system-less mice (otherwise the cancer gets depleted by the mouse's own immune system).

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#53

Post by Luc »

dhmholley wrote: post #51
Luc wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Labs should have sticks with "Is the Talidomide, stupid" printed in uppercases, and those type of articles should probably be answered also with the same slogan. This made me smirk, because Thalidomide could be the poster child for the ineffectiveness of animal testing.

And unfortunately it often is used that way, by people who don't understand that animal testing would have caught the birth defects had it been tested on pregnant animals (advocating, if anything, for more thorough animal testing, not for animal testing's ineffectiveness). Of course people aren't interested in this, they're just after the conclusion that supports their preconceived ideas.

It was tested extensively on animals before release, and even after it was suspected of causing deformities, tests on pregnant dogs, cats, monkeys, hamsters and chickens were done and failed to produce deformities.

Eventually they showed up in a particular strain of rabbits.

But hey, that was long ago.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#54

Post by Thriptic »

marincounty wrote: post #26
jonchang wrote: post #10

I can say with confidence that this sort of thing would never occur in a modern research laboratory. Note that standards for ethical experimentation on animals (including humans) hadn't really appeared until the 70s and 80s. A couple of points here: Any type of animal experimentation must be accompanied by an IACUC protocol that is approved by a committee, typically at least 3 people, and usually including a veterina…

"Any surgery that happens must be done under anesthesia using approved chemicals." I had a girlfriend who was working on a some kind of graduate neuroscience degree in the late 90's. She used to tell me stories about students, and researchers killing/maiming animals in order to carry out their experiments. Her lab job was to kill rats in the lab(adults, and babies). She would slam their heads into a piece of granite.…

> Her lab job was to kill rats in the lab(adults, and babies). She would slam their heads into a piece of granite. Some times multiple times. (btw--she had horrid dexterity)

NO IACUC at any university or any veterinarian would approve this.

> Years ago some Researcher put a plywood cover on his truck. He then filled the truck with live piglets. He then went four wheel driving. He claimed to be studying orthopedic injuries.

If not illegal then, this would certainly be illegal now.

> She even admitted a lot of it was validating Current studies--so students could finish their studies in order to get that advance degree.

How is validation useless?

> So, there are no regulations in the United States on the treatment rodents and amphibians in schools and labs.

If anything there is TOO MUCH regulation. There are so many hoops you have to jump through before you're allowed to do animal experiments that it's almost ridiculous at this point in several institutions. I was on a team which proposed an experiment in which we wanted to monitor the uptake of trace quantities of known compounds and their derivatives in hair. The doses would have been far below anything toxic and the only procedures were injection of the compound and shaving the rodents while they were under anesthetic. This experiment took WELL OVER A YEAR to make it through multiple animal welfare committees and for investigators to get the required training; so long that we ended up dropping the proposal all together.

Please also keep in mind that most experiments are being done on mice, animals which people have no problem killing and attacking in their homes using brutal techniques (sticky traps, terrible poisons, spring loaded traps) or feeding to their caged pets while still alive with no moral qualms whatsoever.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#55

Post by dhmholley »

Luc wrote: post #53
dhmholley wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And unfortunately it often is used that way, by people who don't understand that animal testing would have caught the birth defects had it been tested on pregnant animals (advocating, if anything, for more thorough animal testing, not for animal testing's ineffectiveness). Of course people aren't interested in this, they're just after the conclusion that supports their preconceived ideas.

It was tested extensively on animals before release, and even after it was suspected of causing deformities, tests on pregnant dogs, cats, monkeys, hamsters and chickens were done and failed to produce deformities. Eventually they showed up in a particular strain of rabbits. But hey, that was long ago.

If you have some citations for that I'd be interested in reading them, because I've never heard that before.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#56

Post by Luc »

dhmholley wrote: post #55
Luc wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was tested extensively on animals before release, and even after it was suspected of causing deformities, tests on pregnant dogs, cats, monkeys, hamsters and chickens were done and failed to produce deformities. Eventually they showed up in a particular strain of rabbits. But hey, that was long ago.

If you have some citations for that I'd be interested in reading them, because I've never heard that before.

I have only scanned it, but probably in here: http://jpsl.org/archives/history-and-implications-testing-th...

"Lasagna [157] commented that once a chemical is known to cause birth defects in humans, an animal species or strain can usually be found that will replicate the response, but that this is not the same as prospectively predicting this response."

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#57

Post by logfromblammo »

Thriptic wrote: post #54
marincounty wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Any surgery that happens must be done under anesthesia using approved chemicals." I had a girlfriend who was working on a some kind of graduate neuroscience degree in the late 90's. She used to tell me stories about students, and researchers killing/maiming animals in order to carry out their experiments. Her lab job was to kill rats in the lab(adults, and babies). She would slam their heads into a piece of granite.…

> Her lab job was to kill rats in the lab(adults, and babies). She would slam their heads into a piece of granite. Some times multiple times. (btw--she had horrid dexterity) NO IACUC at any university or any veterinarian would approve this. > Years ago some Researcher put a plywood cover on his truck. He then filled the truck with live piglets. He then went four wheel driving. He claimed to be studying orthopedic inj…

I recently attended a parents' meeting for the elementary school science fair. If the 5th-grade students were doing an experiment that involved animals, they had to fill out a stack of forms and collect the signature of a vet. If the experiment involved humans--even if that involvement was as simple as answering a question--each human participant had to sign a form.

My kid, who also attended, said, "I'm doing my experiment on plants."

Elementary school science fair! If you want to condition your own dog to salivate at the sound of a bell, you need to fill out additional paperwork and get your vet to approve. I can only imagine what load of crap university scientists have to wade through to get any research done.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#58

Post by pvaldes »

marincounty wrote: post #26
jonchang wrote: post #10

I can say with confidence that this sort of thing would never occur in a modern research laboratory. Note that standards for ethical experimentation on animals (including humans) hadn't really appeared until the 70s and 80s. A couple of points here: Any type of animal experimentation must be accompanied by an IACUC protocol that is approved by a committee, typically at least 3 people, and usually including a veterina…

"Any surgery that happens must be done under anesthesia using approved chemicals." I had a girlfriend who was working on a some kind of graduate neuroscience degree in the late 90's. She used to tell me stories about students, and researchers killing/maiming animals in order to carry out their experiments. Her lab job was to kill rats in the lab(adults, and babies). She would slam their heads into a piece of granite.…

Well, I have a hard time buying your history, or at least should be explained better.

The fear to touching flesh and blood of a dead animal is fine if you want to be florist, but not acceptable if your dream is to be a surgeon. No game simulator can provide you with the same experience; you need to fight against this fear and you either win or give up. Sooner is better to avoid to spend many years fading away in the wrong place doing things that you really don't want to do.

Your friend simply seem to be too depressed and unmotivated ("those experiments are useless") to see it coming and finally let this obstacle (and social environment expectatives?) to kill her dream of being a neurobiologist. A pity for her and for all the people that could have benefited of his talent.

In the 90's you could easily find a small guillotine to kill instantly and humanely a rat or a mouse in any lab. Not a lot of blood is spilled (because, well, rats are small animals) but some people just dismay and can't cope with the idea of seeing any blood. Probably the guillotine was so traumatic to her that she prefer to break the nek of the animals with a thin piece of granite instead. Guillotine fail less, but if you know how to do it, this is also acceptable. Farmers all around the world break the necks of rabbits and chickens to kill them instantly and most omnivorous people will name this as example of an humane way to dispatch them for our kitchens.

Please note that this is very different to the gross picture that you are trying to sell of a rock crushing the head of an animal repeatedly until dead. The idea that researchers squash the head of their animals with a rock before to extract the brain for study drug damages is surrealist.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#59

Post by pvaldes »

Luc wrote: post #48
pvaldes wrote: post #46

Puppet activists playing god and destroying the lives of the young researchers whereas everybody treat them as the great hero of the week. Is a problem, yes. To be young an naive and doing silly things trying to impress your crush is understandable and even likeable. But, when your love plan involves to 'morally torture' or destroy lives of other young girls and guys, and millions of dollars in stuff, papers should a…

> Labs should have sticks with "Is the Talidomide, stupid" printed in uppercases, and those type of articles should probably be answered also with the same slogan. This made me smirk, because Thalidomide could be the poster child for the ineffectiveness of animal testing.

Thalidomide is the poster child for not doing enough animal testing in fact. Had this being tested in a few macaques instead to stop just with the rats tests (inmune to thalidomide) had save us a sea of tears. The life of about 30.000 people, mothers, fathers, sons and daugthers, will be very different today.

Re: I Was an Animal Experimenter

#60

Post by saint_fiasco »

TheCondor wrote: post #42
howling wrote: post #32

I always wonder why people feel so upset over millions of animals being experimented every year when we kill and eat billions of animals every day.

There is a giant difference between feeding some and some of the "behavioral" experiments mentioned in the article. Why do cats play with mice? Are cats evil?

To be fair, factory farming is pretty awful.
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