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Pharo 4.0 Released

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Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#51

Post by zak_mc_kracken »

kilon wrote: post #31
reymus wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then you don't understand what Smalltalk is anyway Sorry, but I think that is just wrong. As far as I know, Pharo is one of the best and more approachable alternatives to enter the Smalltalk world. They should be doing a better job at welcoming people to "their world". If they want people to just come already knowing what they are going to get, I don't see how are they going to go mainstream, ever (assuming they wo…

My personal opinion on this and no way the opinion of core Pharo devs, I am just a newcomer to Pharo and a minor contributor. Mainstream will kill Pharo in an instant. Pharo is too cool and too well designed for mainstream. Pharo also is going towards a complete opposite direction of sacrificing features over ease of usage. So in the end Pharo is not designed for the mainstream developer its designed for the develope…

> Pharo is too cool and too well designed for mainstream.

And people wonder why the Smalltalk community has such a bad reputation.

Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#52

Post by igouy »

cgh wrote: post #42
kilon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you don't understand "an IDE , OS rolled into one" then you don't understand what Smalltalk is anyway. Its not easy to explain what Pharo is , the same way its not easy to explain what Emacs is , etc. There are may ideas and workflow integrated into it and its development workflow is radically different to normal programming languages. "Does it compile to executables" No it does not , but there is no need.…

How does source control work for Pharo? I know it was an issue with Smalltalk as your "source" was a modified binary image. Is this the same?

Incidentally, even back in the day with the original Smalltalk-80 the "source" was available in a plain text sources file and the programmer's changes and additions were available in a plain text changes file which were in-sync with the image file.

Of course, arbitrary code could be exported in text files from the "binary image" file (even if that required code to be de-compiled from bytecode to text).

Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#53

Post by kilon »

cgh wrote: post #42
kilon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you don't understand "an IDE , OS rolled into one" then you don't understand what Smalltalk is anyway. Its not easy to explain what Pharo is , the same way its not easy to explain what Emacs is , etc. There are may ideas and workflow integrated into it and its development workflow is radically different to normal programming languages. "Does it compile to executables" No it does not , but there is no need.…

How does source control work for Pharo? I know it was an issue with Smalltalk as your "source" was a modified binary image. Is this the same?

You can use Pharo with git and github outside the box if you are using MacOS or Linux, there are some issues I think with Windows. Pharo uses Filetree which export source to files and makes commits , pulls , pushs etc. Gitfiletree allows filetree to be managed by git from inside Pharo without the use of a terminal but you can still use the terminal if that is your thing. I explain filetree, git and github in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2WNYDtO0cE&list=PLqbtQ7OkSt...

Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#54

Post by kilon »

lispm wrote: post #49
kilon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not, but on the other hand, existing GUI APIs are not live coding friendly nor made in Pharo ;) Also the moment you want to change something or hack something , welcome to C++ hell. You sacrifice native look and powerful features, you get a live easy to hack system in return. But as I said Pharo DOES NOT forbid you from using Native libraries of any sort, including GUI. The fact that the vast majority of pharo de…

Compare with for example this Lisp application: http://opusmodus.com/user-interface.html A new UI, but using tons of native elements...

Why talk about a music app that a small amount of people use while we can talk about the most popular pro music apps out there. The kind of apps that the whole music industry is based on. Cubase , Ableton Live, Logic and Reason.

Guess what .... they all have custom GUIs

http://rekkerd.org/img/201404/prop_reason71.jpg http://www.highprofileaudio.com/LogicPro_BIG1.jpg http://static.kvraudio.com/i/b/cubase5.jpg http://soundista.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Ableton.png

When it comes to music and graphics, there is not even a contest. Custom GUI win hearts of the users. Same story with mobile apps and web apps.

As matter of fact even some of the apps that do use Native GUIs they reject the native look using their own custom look at least to an extend.

And the native look goes more and more towards popular custom guis we see in web apps, like flat design etc etc.

Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#55

Post by CyberDildonics »

kilon wrote: post #31
reymus wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then you don't understand what Smalltalk is anyway Sorry, but I think that is just wrong. As far as I know, Pharo is one of the best and more approachable alternatives to enter the Smalltalk world. They should be doing a better job at welcoming people to "their world". If they want people to just come already knowing what they are going to get, I don't see how are they going to go mainstream, ever (assuming they wo…

My personal opinion on this and no way the opinion of core Pharo devs, I am just a newcomer to Pharo and a minor contributor. Mainstream will kill Pharo in an instant. Pharo is too cool and too well designed for mainstream. Pharo also is going towards a complete opposite direction of sacrificing features over ease of usage. So in the end Pharo is not designed for the mainstream developer its designed for the develope…

It's also too cool to have a hello world that you can give to someone come in under 20 MB.

Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#56

Post by Homunculiheaded »

StevePerkins wrote: post #16

Not having heard of Pharo before 10 minutes ago, I wish this website did a better job of explaining what it is. "... an object-oriented programming language and a powerful environment... (think IDE and OS rolled into one)" An IDE and OS rolled into one? What does that even mean? I had to go to Wikipedia to learn that this is basically a modern Smalltalk implementation. So why not just say that on the main page? I onc…

From the amazing "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk"[0], which is short, beautiful and everyone interested in programming and software should read at least once:

"Operating System: An operating system is a collection of things that don't fit into a language. There shouldn't be one."

Syntactically, the SmallTalk language is relatively straightforward, but the power of SmallTalk is that the designers envisioned so much more from what a programming language should be. SmallTalk has a "World" which is an incredible concept (this is the OS/IDE combo). Of course, this means that you must abandon every tool you use to start working in the language. But in exchange you can click on any window and view the source code for it, see where it fits in the object hierarchy etc. Every part of your development world can be interacted with and modified. You can open the same world from a usb drive on Windows, Mac and Linux. Unlike Haskell, it's not the language itself that will expand your vision of programming, it's the approach to what it even means to have a programming language.

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/smalltalk.h...

Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#57

Post by lispm »

kilon wrote: post #54
lispm wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare with for example this Lisp application: http://opusmodus.com/user-interface.html A new UI, but using tons of native elements...

Why talk about a music app that a small amount of people use while we can talk about the most popular pro music apps out there. The kind of apps that the whole music industry is based on. Cubase , Ableton Live, Logic and Reason. Guess what .... they all have custom GUIs http://rekkerd.org/img/201404/prop_reason71.jpg http://www.highprofileaudio.com/LogicPro_BIG1.jpg http://static.kvraudio.com/i/b/cubase5.jpg http://s…

None of them uses its own Window system.

Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#58

Post by kilon »

lispm wrote: post #57
kilon wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why talk about a music app that a small amount of people use while we can talk about the most popular pro music apps out there. The kind of apps that the whole music industry is based on. Cubase , Ableton Live, Logic and Reason. Guess what .... they all have custom GUIs http://rekkerd.org/img/201404/prop_reason71.jpg http://www.highprofileaudio.com/LogicPro_BIG1.jpg http://static.kvraudio.com/i/b/cubase5.jpg http://s…

None of them uses its own Window system.

actually all of them do use their own Window system and far more than that.

Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#59

Post by kilon »

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #51
kilon wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal opinion on this and no way the opinion of core Pharo devs, I am just a newcomer to Pharo and a minor contributor. Mainstream will kill Pharo in an instant. Pharo is too cool and too well designed for mainstream. Pharo also is going towards a complete opposite direction of sacrificing features over ease of usage. So in the end Pharo is not designed for the mainstream developer its designed for the develope…

> Pharo is too cool and too well designed for mainstream. And people wonder why the Smalltalk community has such a bad reputation.

Does your definition of "bad reputation" also includes modern software basing itself on ideas and implementation that either originated from Smalltalk or greatly improved by it, like GUI MVC , mouse integration, VM , Test Driven Development , IDE and much more ?

If yes then I hope Pharo keeps bringing a lot more of this "bad reputation" I find it very useful and productive. Frankly I wish I was aware of this "bad reputation" 25 years ago, would have saved me a lot of trouble learning all these languages which just recycle the same old things slightly modified. Unfortunately I converted to Squeak and then Pharo , a couple years ago. But better late than never :)

By the way you do not need to be a "snob" Smalltalker to be upset about mainstream's software disregard of good designs. There are endless posts on C++ design, Java design, Javascript design , Eclipse design , Visual Studio design, the horror of MFC, the horrors of web development, the horrors of android development and so much more.

Re: Pharo 4.0 Released

#60

Post by lispm »

kilon wrote: post #58
lispm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of them uses its own Window system.

actually all of them do use their own Window system and far more than that.

Hmm, I just started Logic on my computer and it uses native windows and lots of native UI. There is a main window, preferences window, help window, keyboard window, colors window, metronom settings, ... there is a menu bar with ten menus - native. There are native open/save dialogs, ...

None of that is in Pharo. It uses a clunky font, clunky windows, clunky shadows on windows, clunky resizing of the main window, its own open/save dialogs, its own finder, ...

Looks dated to me...

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