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Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#51

Post by danpat »

javert wrote: post #24
ikken wrote: post #17

The article doesn't provide anything to back the claim that moral opinions may be universally, non-subjectively true. The cartoonist example is deeply flawed. We're outraged because this event violated our deepest beliefs and values we hold dear, not because it violated some universal eternal moral law. We also know that there were people that weren't saddened by this event too. This is the problem I have with many p…

I'm not defending the article, but you are wrong. Stealing from others is bad if it decreases your pleasure and it is good if it increases your pleasure. That is objective.

Does it go from objectively bad to objectively good if you feel differently about it on different days?

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#53

Post by humanrebar »

dikaiosune wrote: post #23

When I was a boy, if you wanted to talk philosophy you reasoned from first principles. Apparently now you can just take whatever half-baked ideas you already have in your head, hold them as the truth, and wantonly criticize anyone or any system that slights those beliefs. Also, we had to walk up hill both ways to school in the snow. /s Turns out that living in a pluralistic, modern society makes it really hard to rea…

> I argue that from a practical perspective, our best bet is moral consensus.

I took that as the point of the piece -- that there is no moral consensus. That even unalienable truths like, "All men are created equal" are being labelled as opinions and lumped in the same category as one's favorite color or sports team.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#54

Post by jvm »

The author declines to demonstrate to the reader that there are moral facts.

He attempted reductiones ad absurdum fall completely flat, e.g.,

> If it’s not true that it’s wrong to murder a cartoonist with whom one disagrees, then how can we be outraged?

...As if nobody has ever been outraged on the basis of their opinions!

He also fails to even mention what a moral fact would consist of. He doesn't say whether he agrees with this definition:

> Fact: Something that is true about a subject and can be tested or proven.

But clearly if one takes this position, there are no moral facts. What would constitute moral proof?

My guess is that the author is crypto-monotheist. With a God around, you could say that a moral claim is God's will, and even if we can't prove it there is a fact of the matter. In a godless world, there is no basis on which a moral claim could be a fact.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#55

Post by esrauch »

peteretep wrote: post #20
clint wrote: post #2

Are there moral facts?

I think if you could show that certain morals were genetic and present in the majority, rather than learned, you'd have a basis for calling those moral facts for humans.

I don't think the author of this would accept this as a fact. There could be things that intellectually we can generally agree are bad that humans might be genetically predisposed to being ok with (e.g. I don't think it would be extremely surprising if humans are predisposed towards certain forms of murder or sexual assault).

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#56

Post by icebraining »

lerpa wrote: post #48
kenjackson wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sun will rise tomorrow is an opinion/speculation. The sun rose today is a fact.

The sun rose today is a fact only if you can prove it. I think you're crazy everyone knows the sun just appeared out of nowhere. PS: Your aunt Sally called, she misses you.

No, facts are facts even if no one can prove it. It's just that if you can't prove it, you can't know if a certain claim (like "the sun rose today") is actually a fact or not.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#57

Post by lerpa »

humanrebar wrote: post #43
ikken wrote: post #17

The article doesn't provide anything to back the claim that moral opinions may be universally, non-subjectively true. The cartoonist example is deeply flawed. We're outraged because this event violated our deepest beliefs and values we hold dear, not because it violated some universal eternal moral law. We also know that there were people that weren't saddened by this event too. This is the problem I have with many p…

> Everything is just an opinion. Including everything you just wrote. I'm not sure why you're so down on his claims when your position is circular at best. Is everything relative so everyone has a valid opinion? Or is everything relative so that nobody has a valid opinion? Either way, why do you care?

He cares because if he's being deceived that's well immor.. uh no, ba.., not that, eh unethi.. well... he doesn't like it because reasons.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#58

Post by EarthLaunch »

Moral 'facts' require a universal standard of morality. It's hard to come up with a truly universal standard. The best answer I've seen is: Man's life.

"Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil." -Ayn Rand [1]

[1] http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/morality.html

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#59

Post by yellowapple »

From the article:

"Conversely, many of the things we once “proved” turned out to be false. For example, many people once thought that the earth was flat."

I don't think this is an example of something that was ever "proved".

Nevertheless, I feel like the author's grasping for straws in his unwillingness to admit that morality is subjective and situational. He's done nothing to prove that moral values can or should be considered "facts" instead of (or in addition to, as he's advocating) opinions.

Re: Why Our Children Don't Think There Are Moral Facts

#60

Post by sjwright »

None of the examples come close to moral fact. (The author wasn't claiming they all were moral fact, but he suggests without being specific that at least some of them ought to be.)

— Copying homework assignments is wrong.

A situational ethic.

— Cursing in school is inappropriate behavior.

A situational ethic.

— All men are created equal.

Objectively false.

— It is worth sacrificing some personal liberties to protect our country from terrorism.

Too vague to be either fact or opinion.

— It is wrong for people under the age of 21 to drink alcohol.

A situational ethic.

— Vegetarians are healthier than people who eat meat.

Most likely false.

— Drug dealers belong in prison.

A situational ethic.

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