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Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

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Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#51

Post by api »

picks_at_nits wrote: post #39
api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And it may be that it intimidates more women than men." I've been looking around for a developer recently, and in looking at the profiles of women vs. men at places like AngelList I noticed a few key differences in how they described themselves. We're talking about people with very similar academic backgrounds here with similar levels of experience. Women would say things like "I worked on a team that did X," while…

> " Women would highlight the cooperative nature of their work, while men would highlight that they did it all themselves. In my experience the latter is typically more honest, especially if you actually were working on a team or on a team-oriented college project. Did you mean to say the former was more honest, i.e. that saying “we did X” is more honest than “I did X?"

Yes. Edited.

It depends on the context of course. If it was your project alone, then you did it. If others contributed non-trivial amounts, it was a team effort. I noted that the males tended to bury that, while the females tended to highlight it.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#52

Post by xigency »

I applied for a job at Fog Creek Software in 2012 where I was accepted for an internship, and I would have to say the application process was difficult, but fair. I was told that there were hundreds of applicants, so being one of five interns selected seemed rather prestigious at the time, but it was still just an opportunity to work on my skills as a developer.

I don't think there is anything that would preclude women from getting technical jobs at a company like Fog Creek except maybe, as was said in the article, a self-selecting attitude. These companies are looking for well-rounded individuals and people who are competent with their skills. It's nothing beyond impossibility to get a job there, it just takes determination.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#53

Post by cauterized »

mason240 wrote: post #35
skywhopper wrote: post #6

I'm glad the "rigorous testing process" was mentioned. The facade of "we only hire superninja-kickass-hyperexperts and we will verify that you are such a programmer before we hire you" attracts a certain type of person, and intimidates another. And it may be that it intimidates more women than men. But the article seems to glide past that and presents the idea that five years of experience might change someone's will…

>attracts a certain type of person, and intimidates another. And it may be that it intimidates more women than men. This is classic horseshoe theory, where extremists on both ends of a spectrum actually wrap around and start to sound the same. In this case they both believe that women are delicate flowers who can't handle the pressure, stress, and competition of the working world like men can.

There's a difference between "lower self-confidence" and "can't handle pressure, stress, and competition". It's also possible that even women who have high self confidence in their abilities are less confident that they will be judged positively by others.

There's plenty of research to the effect that men will apply to a job if they meet 40% of the listed requirements, whereas women won't until they meet 90%. And when you don't meet someone's default expectations of what kind of person a "software developer" (or a "nurse" or a "CEO") is, you often have to work harder to prove that you are one.

But also, why does the working world have to be competitive rather than collaborative?

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#54

Post by pkaye »

moron4hire wrote: post #31

I have a very small consulting company. Both of my employees right now were non-traditional students when they finished their CS degrees. Actually, I'm not even sure the one guy has finished his degree yet. Regardless, neither of them had their degrees when they started working for me. And honestly, I didn't really even know. I never asked them for a resume and they never provided one. I don't really test the people…

I think this method doesn't work in all situations. For example in embedded programming. First there are not many of those who actually work in this field so unlikely to just meet up with them. Most are stabily employed. Secondly, there is lots of proprietary hardware and knowledge. Third, hard to work on a trial job when you are already working. Lastly there are a good number of people who are just not skilled enough and will waste your time during the trial period.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#55

Post by Kalium »

ashray wrote: post #49
skywhopper wrote: post #6

I'm glad the "rigorous testing process" was mentioned. The facade of "we only hire superninja-kickass-hyperexperts and we will verify that you are such a programmer before we hire you" attracts a certain type of person, and intimidates another. And it may be that it intimidates more women than men. But the article seems to glide past that and presents the idea that five years of experience might change someone's will…

We (www.gapjumpers.me) are trying to solve the gender diversity issue in tech by using blind auditions as a first filter. Our data shows that blind auditions result in greater diversity numbers. By using a technical challenge as the first step and fast forwarding people to an advanced interview stage, we're eliminating candidate reluctance and increasing transparency (the candidate interacts directly with the hiring…

Do you have any numbers you can share? Do your results look significantly different from the background population?

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#56

Post by Kalium »

wpietri wrote: post #32
ManFromUranus wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the lack of gender diversity in tech an obvious problem? Women can do whatever they want to do, if they aren't in tech, they probably don't want to be there. You might say something about discrimination or sexism or some such thing, however I am highly skeptical of that. I have been a programmer for 10+ years and never saw any kind of negative discrimination against women. I have seen many examples of positive…

> Women can do whatever they want to do, if they aren't in tech, they probably don't want to be there. This is so far from the lived reality of women in tech or any of the data on hiring that you should be embarrassed to open your mouth. On HN most people get that before opining on the merits of functional programming, they should have tried it. Or at the very least spent a fair bit of time reading about what people…

Are you aware that you have not only failed to educate people, but you have only taught them that voicing an opinion that you don't agree with will bring disproportionately furious rebuke?

A serious question: do you think you will change how people behave by acting in this way?

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#57

Post by lumpypua »

onezeno wrote: post #50
protonfish wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you think that. I have found getting feedback from team members before user testing finds a lot of low-hanging issues.

I'd be okay if it just said "usability testing". In my company that's just a part of the testing phase. But no way I'm just going to grab someone walking down the hall. I assume people are busy enough.

> But no way I'm just going to grab someone walking down the hall. I assume people are busy enough.

That seems like a kind of joyless approach to life.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#58

Post by moron4hire »

pkaye wrote: post #54
moron4hire wrote: post #31

I have a very small consulting company. Both of my employees right now were non-traditional students when they finished their CS degrees. Actually, I'm not even sure the one guy has finished his degree yet. Regardless, neither of them had their degrees when they started working for me. And honestly, I didn't really even know. I never asked them for a resume and they never provided one. I don't really test the people…

I think this method doesn't work in all situations. For example in embedded programming. First there are not many of those who actually work in this field so unlikely to just meet up with them. Most are stabily employed. Secondly, there is lots of proprietary hardware and knowledge. Third, hard to work on a trial job when you are already working. Lastly there are a good number of people who are just not skilled enoug…

Actually, one of them does do some embedded programming for me.

Granted, my sample size is small, but traditional hiring practices are completely ineffective, so you shouldn't waste your time thinking you have any influence over the process.

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#59

Post by ForHackernews »

wpietri wrote: post #32
ManFromUranus wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the lack of gender diversity in tech an obvious problem? Women can do whatever they want to do, if they aren't in tech, they probably don't want to be there. You might say something about discrimination or sexism or some such thing, however I am highly skeptical of that. I have been a programmer for 10+ years and never saw any kind of negative discrimination against women. I have seen many examples of positive…

> Women can do whatever they want to do, if they aren't in tech, they probably don't want to be there. This is so far from the lived reality of women in tech or any of the data on hiring that you should be embarrassed to open your mouth. On HN most people get that before opining on the merits of functional programming, they should have tried it. Or at the very least spent a fair bit of time reading about what people…

This raises an interesting question: Do we think that discrimination in technology is worse (or more entrenched?) than discrimination in law, medicine, or finance? These other fields were almost entirely male within living memory (my mother was one of two women in her law school class) and are now approaching gender parity (at least at most levels, I'm sure that senior partners are still mostly men). Why has there been such a dramatic turnaround in medicine, but not engineering or technology?

Re: Why Software Maker Fog Creek Is Helping Its Competitors Hire Women

#60

Post by petar23GJ »

Kalium wrote: post #55
ashray wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (www.gapjumpers.me) are trying to solve the gender diversity issue in tech by using blind auditions as a first filter. Our data shows that blind auditions result in greater diversity numbers. By using a technical challenge as the first step and fast forwarding people to an advanced interview stage, we're eliminating candidate reluctance and increasing transparency (the candidate interacts directly with the hiring…

Do you have any numbers you can share? Do your results look significantly different from the background population?

Hi Kalium,

for numbers, please have a look here at what our data is showing to date:

www.gapjumpers.me/#genderResults

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