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Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

timkadlec.com

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Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#51
post #49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet it was only a few weeks ago that YouTube started serving HTML5 video by default on the desktop (yes I know there was a flakey cookie-based opt-in earlier). There and elsewhere I was/am STILL having to spoof my desktop user-agent to pretend to be a phone to get around "Flash is REQUIRED to view this content" roadblocks. Ideally Flash needs a bullet to the head, but I credit Apple with the best strike on it so…

You miss my point. You're saying we should forgive Apple of their current transgressions because they did something nice 7 years ago ? Give me a break.

I said "I" not we, and nothing about forgiveness.

Flash not being on iOS was not a point in time, but a continuous good thing.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#52
Isn't the Web a competitor to the App Store? Especially when web apps start to catch up with native apps (and Santa tracker and the rest of Google's Polymer apps seem to suggest this is only a year or so away, and FirefoxOS has certainly made huge strides in this direction) and offline support with web workers is ubiquitous?

My experiences with Web Components, at least, do seem to suggest they're not very proactive and/or dedicated in the standards department, at least. They did put Shadow DOM into their spec at one point, but then removed it. The template tag is in at least, but that is a very, very simple tag (inert content until added to dom).

(I also found IE11 to play much nicer compared to Safari as compared to bug in my apps, not standard support, although that is really an indication of IE11's quality rather than Safari's laggardly standard support.)

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#54
post #21

The answer is a gritty, in-your-face "no". We have a recurring situation where all vendors (save for Apple) show interest in standard, but because Apple does not express that same interest, the standard gets waylaid. That is literally not true – Google, by some metrics the biggest vendor, has also shown no interest in PE. Frankly, I don't see that much of a problem with Webkit and its' adherence to standards. Broadly…

> If we had Apple on board with PE, we’d still be on board too. You entirely missed this quote in the article. How do you explain that?

As a BS excuse?

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#55
What is difficult to argue against, and I'm surprised isn't mentioned in this article, is that Apple have completely eliminated market competition from happening around web standards on the iOS platform.

It is impossible to ship e.g. Chromium on iOS right now. We just collectively buy the arguments put forward by Apple to support that position without appreciating the ramifications of not allowing market forces to drive healthy, competitive development.

In that process we made Apple the gatekeeper of web standards development. They can ship whatever they want, when they want and there is no way to build or work around it (e.g. 'Download this alternative browser!').

All we can do is wait, hope or complain. Apple knows the power it wields. I figure Google understands that too hence their position wrt Pointer Events.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#56

Are they really? Other browser vendors also refuse to implement things sometimes. IE has taken its sweet time on certain technologies, entirely deliberately. Google have tried to force standards with their marketshare. Pointer Events is an odd case. It's a Microsoft-backed spec that only Microsoft supports. Apple won't implement it, Google won't, Mozilla's implementation is unfinished. Touch Events is also weird: onl…

I would say Mozilla refusing to implement h254 support was a similar issue, although their reasons were much clearer.

Or Mozilla and MS refusing to implement Web SQL Databases because IndexedDB and NoSQL was better, even though one works on all mobile phones since 2010 and the other is wonky and has a terribly designed API.

No need to single anyone out. They're all equally guilty.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#57
The whole "developer relations as Bigfoot" trope doesn't ring true when it comes to WebKit, in my experience. I've had Apple developers reach out to me when I've mentioned WebKit bugs on Twitter. They're very happy to talk about efforts towards standards, and I actually find it to be one of the least cynical parts of Apple's business.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#58
The dream of the modern web is the concept of a single standard/platform that is used for all user facing software. This is a flawed idea and this article demonstrates one of the biggest reasons for that. By definition, features only become part of open web standards if all the main players agree to them. All the players have financial and political incentives to block various things. Corporations can block something that you want to use even though you have no relationship with that corporation. In a capitalist system you have very little leverage against a corporation that you have no financial relationship with. What are you going to do: stop buying the [Apple/Google/Microsoft] products that you already don't use? What's left is people writing angry impotent blog posts against companies that don't care about them in the least.

The list of proposed standards that have been blocked/delayed by one of more of the big browsers is huge. Blocking proposed standards isn't uncommon, if anything it's the norm. mathml, websql, pointer events, h264 video, nacl, flexbox, webgl, jpeg2000, webm, mp3, ogg vorbis, theora, webp etc etc.

Because of its origins as a way of displaying untrusted documents the web has no 'escape hatch'. It's a very tight sandbox. Flash and Java used to fulfil that role but they are on the way out. The web has a very basic trust model - all pages are untrusted and there is no other level of trust available. So if what you want to do hasn't been blessed by all the browser vendors then you are screwed. Does one of the main browser vendors compete with your product? It's quite likely that they do. Yet you want to give them full control over how your code can run all on all users machines?

If you don't like the idea of a corporation being able to veto a web standard then you need to seriously ask yourself if you actually like the idea of open web standards at all. Political vetoing is integral to the idea of open standards created through consensus and it isn't going to go away no matter how much people fantasise about it.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Um, that's an assertion, without which the rest of the piece makes no sense. I would have expected a little evidence to back the assertion up... How, exactly, would you expect the OP to present evidence of Apple not showing interest? What would that "evidence" look like? I can't provide evidence that my golden retriever doesn't have an advanced understanding of quantum mechanics, but I don't think that would get hi…

The parent makes a solid point, and you're employing this logical fallacy, which is why I am down voting you.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule

Ridicule is not what he's appealing to, rather, the basic evidential principle that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#60

People are getting really bogged down in specific standards, but you don't need to talk about pointer events or flexbox or indexeddb or whatever, you can look at this at a macro level. Here's the ES6 support table: http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es6/ Safari and IE were laggards, but future IE is going to be very solid while future Safari is still going to be terrible. Here's the HTML5 support table: https://htm…

To be fair, if you compare IE11's with other browsers at the time of its release, they have stellar support. There is still no other stable browser that supports let, and the only other browser with support for const is Firefox 36 (released yesterday).

For better or worse, Internet Explorer has a far longer release cycle. But right after release IE is often ahead of the other browsers in some regard (CSS calc and the ECMA Internationalization API come to mind).

Safari hasn't done that in a while.

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