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EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

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Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#51
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm telling you the economic justification for a corporation. I don't like it either, but denying economies of scale as a reality of our world is silly. I would be fine with abolishing arms manufacturers. Have you stopped using Google yet? Because they are the Lockheed Martin of the 21st century. I agree with you that corporations are psychopathic. But to suggest that fact abdicates us from all responsibility of tryi…

> I would be fine with abolishing arms manufacturers. why though? it's people that fire the guns. there will always be someone out there with a sharper stick. i mean this is literally where the term "arms race" comes from..! > Have you stopped using Google yet? Because they are the Lockheed Martin of the 21st century. do google do bad things? yes. but comparing them to Lockheed Martin ? either you vastly underestimat…

> i'm saying we need to stop immoral behaviour when it is happening. we can't define morals in law, and the law is the only thing corporations understand. we can't change laws and retroactively apply them.

Two things:

a) you can definitely capture part of your morals in law, like "don't kill". Our anti-genocide legal system is built for this purpose and applies to corporations as well as to individuals.

b) at the time of the Apartheid, unlike during WWII, crimes against humanity were already prosecutable "anywhere on earth". In other words we can definitely prosecute IBM now for a crime they committed under a law that was already active when the crime was committed, and which has no statute of limitation.

Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, by your logic, if evidence surfaces after 30 years that solves an open murder case, we shouldn't prosecute the suspect, because they've changed a lot in that time?

Same person, though. Without going all philosophical about it though, here's an example: let's assume there are two companies, one a sole proprietorship, the other a corporation with 10 employees. Both companies commit the same crime, the nature of which is unimportant. It takes 30+ years for the case to enter the judicial system. In the meantime, the guy running the first company is still there, while the 10 employe…

There are a number of reasons for prosecuting, from punishing wrong doing to discourage overs, to getting compensation, to punishing the people who have done wrong.

You seem to think only one of these exists.

Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#53
I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how IBM actively facilitated anything other than being able to more effectively process information on citizens - something that most modern countries either already have or very strongly desire.

    the national identification system was highly
    customized, requiring close collaboration with the
    South African government;
So are most IBM products on a large scale. This is no different from how IBM typically treats all of its high-paying customers, including large-scale enterprises and - you guessed it - governments.

Now granted, IBM probably shouldn't have been doing business with the South Africans in the first place, customizations or no. However, IBM wanting to create a customized system for the specific needs of a major customer is not out-of-the-ordinary by any means, nor is it any reason to be up-in-arms.

    racial classification was a primary identifying
    characteristic;
Racial classification is a significant identifying characteristic in virtually all citizen databases, censuses, etc. You'd be hard-pressed to find a country whose census doesn't at least mention race or ethnicity. I will, however, concede that incorporating race in the identification number itself - as the South Africans did - is highly suspect, but it's not stated whether or not IBM was the one that actually implemented that aspect of the identification system in question.

    and the equipment was leased.
What does this have to do with anything?

The EFF article is trying to claim that - by the mere merit of IBM having helped South Africa develop a citizen identification system - it's complicit in human rights violations. Guess what? There exists a staggeringly-large quantity of countries with citizen identification systems[0]. It would be one thing if IBM designed the system specifically for the purpose of discriminating against blacks, but this article hasn't really made a convincing argument of that (namely, it hasn't provided any real proof that enabling apartheid was indeed IBM's goal). As far as I can tell, IBM was simply helping South Africa develop the same sort of system that most other countries either already had or would soon have. In other words, IBM's involvement was to implement a general-purpose product which was then subsequently abused by the South African government.

I will admit that the implementation of a race code in the identification numbers themselves is suspect, and perhaps that's what the EFF is going after (if IBM was indeed involved in that particular element of South African citizen ID numbers; the article doesn't really go into detail on that). It's also suspect that IBM proceeded with this (according to the EFF, at least) after having been disallowed from doing so by the U.S. government, and that IBM was secretive about it. However, the act of creating an identification system - on its own - does not seem as if it can be classified as "directly facilitating" anything, let alone racism. The EFF would have a better case if they focused on those individual elements rather than trying to claim that the ID system in its entirety was designed to facilitate that institutionalized racism.

This is all not to mention that IBM actually has a very positive track record for eschewing racial discrimination in its hiring decisions and workplace environments[1]; creating something specifically to oppress a particular racial demographic is quite a bit out-of-character for them.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identification_number

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM#Work_environment

Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#54
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you didn't read the article, they dedicated the third paragraph explaining why it isn't the case of simply going after general-purpose technology that could be used.

It sounds like you didn't read the parent comment, then, which pointed out multiple examples of technologies that would also fit the criteria being used to chastise IBM. IBM creating citizen tracking software - in both the Nazi German and Apartheid South African scenarios - is equivalent to a company building engines for tanks or parts for machine guns. Does the EFF plan on suing every last one of those companies? An…

Does the EFF plan on suing every last one of those companies?

The EFF isn't suing anyone. They filled an Amicus Brief on a case started by South African plaintiffs.

And the difference between what IBM did and those hypothetical cases is that there were actually US sanctions that (allegedly) forbid them from making those deals, so what they did was not only immoral but probably illegal.

Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apartheid has been illegal the whole time.

Once again, depends on who you ask. By international laws (Universal Declaration of Human Rights) it has been illegal starting 19481[1]. USA, however, still struggled with racial segregation until the 1960s and until then wasn't really illegal in the States. In South Africa, it probably wasn't illegal either as the government made the law themselves. [1]Or 1976

As the EFF notes, US sanctions alone made it illegal for IBM to make those deals.

Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One does not even need jurisdiction in order to try someone for war crimes. The Kuala Lampur War Crimes Commission tried and convicted George W. Bush and Tony Blair for "crimes against peace" in 2011 under the principle of universal jurisdiction. Their sentence was to be entered into a register of war criminals to be published worldwide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commiss...

I hereby accuse Hackernews user vinceguidry of war crimes for the publishing of propaganda. His trial will be held in one paragraphs time. In light over overwhelming evidence that vinceguidry has published news that is fallacious and quite frankly silly (The idea that GWB and Tony Blair are being held accountable for War Crimes because some self-appointed group of people in some backwards state can hold a war crimes…

I'm honestly failing to see why you're being downvoted and the parent comment isn't, considering that you're pretty much spot on as to why the KLWCC is pretty much irrelevant. Even the U.N. doesn't recognize them to be legitimate.

Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#57
post #3

This is pretty sweet. Given that corporations are people these days, I guess they can be charged with knowingly facilitating war crimes?

One does not even need jurisdiction in order to try someone for war crimes. The Kuala Lampur War Crimes Commission tried and convicted George W. Bush and Tony Blair for "crimes against peace" in 2011 under the principle of universal jurisdiction. Their sentence was to be entered into a register of war criminals to be published worldwide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commiss...

From the article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commiss... ):

    The former United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Independence of Judges and Lawyers, Param Cumaraswamy, has suggested the tribunal is a private enterprise with no legal basis and questions its legitimacy.[13] The tribunal does not have a UN mandate or recognition, no power to order arrests or impose sentences, and it is unclear that its verdicts have any but symbolic significance.[14]
The KLWCC seems to exist solely to bitch and moan about the United States and Israel. It reeks of strong anti-American and anti-Israeli (and very likely pro-Islamic) bias. This isn't to mention that its founder has a reputation for antisemitism - beliefs that make for a very handy explanation as to why the United States and Israel are the only countries which have been the subject of condemnations by this particular organization.

Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#58

There might be some network equipment vendors nervously observing this case. They probably haven't done anything as awful as building a bespoke apparatus of apartheid, and arguably they've done nothing technically different than Room 641A. However, there are probably some dissidents who would make convincing plaintiff's witnesses, were they ever to get out of the dungeons and into an American courtroom.

Cisco is probably feeling pretty nervous about this. Some may say "but why does this matter now ? It's all in the past." The problem is I think we're going to see many more such cases in the next couple of decades (at least). There are already companies that knowingly help governments spy on their citizens and help them catch dissidents or even kill journalists (think the self-driving cars of the future or cars that…

For what it's worth, I upvoted despite my disagreement about IBM being supposedly complicit in South African institutionalized racism (I don't think the EFF's case here is particularly convincing as presented in the article, though the case regarding Nazi collaboration might be different), since I think your comment does in fact contribute positively to the discussion and doesn't deserve to be downvoted at all, let alone as heavily as it seems to be.

Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#59
post #3

This is pretty sweet. Given that corporations are people these days, I guess they can be charged with knowingly facilitating war crimes?

One does not even need jurisdiction in order to try someone for war crimes. The Kuala Lampur War Crimes Commission tried and convicted George W. Bush and Tony Blair for "crimes against peace" in 2011 under the principle of universal jurisdiction. Their sentence was to be entered into a register of war criminals to be published worldwide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commiss...

> One does not even need jurisdiction in order to try someone for war crimes.

Yes, one does.

> The Kuala Lampur War Crimes Commission tried and convicted George W. Bush and Tony Blair for "crimes against peace" in 2011 under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

Ignoring the question of the legitimacy of the KLWCC (as others have addressed that issue effectively), the principle of universal jurisdiction is a basis under which to assert jurisdiction, so its use is an acknowledgement of the need to establish jurisdiction, rather than support for the claim that jurisdiction is unnecessary for such a trial.

Re: EFF Files Brief in Case to Hold IBM Responsible for Facilitating Apartheid

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you didn't read the parent comment, then, which pointed out multiple examples of technologies that would also fit the criteria being used to chastise IBM. IBM creating citizen tracking software - in both the Nazi German and Apartheid South African scenarios - is equivalent to a company building engines for tanks or parts for machine guns. Does the EFF plan on suing every last one of those companies? An…

Does the EFF plan on suing every last one of those companies? The EFF isn't suing anyone. They filled an Amicus Brief on a case started by South African plaintiffs. And the difference between what IBM did and those hypothetical cases is that there were actually US sanctions that (allegedly) forbid them from making those deals, so what they did was not only immoral but probably illegal.

I agree that IBM should be punished for violating American law. My point is that the focus of the EFF's brief ought to be specific cases where IBM actually did facilitate Apartheid (if they did, in fact, do so). Creating a citizen database (for example) is not immoral, nor is recording race as statistical information, but adding a race identifier to the ID numbers does seem to be, and thus would be a better case. "IBM is bad because it implemented a racial identification code in the second-to-last digit of citizen ID numbers" is a much more convincing case than "IBM is bad because it created a citizen ID numbering system".
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