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UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

theguardian.com

51–60 of 65 posts

Re: UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

#51
post #45

The way this same story has been spun by the BBC worries me. You'd think the news line has to be, as the Guardian and others are reporting, GCHQ mass Internet surveillance was 'unlawful'. The Beeb did go with 'unlawful' in their original headline but the story has since been watered down with sheer wordiness. 'Unlawlful' now appears in the tenth paragraph, below an analysis panel, and is only then included in a quota…

That's a great point. About the only thing you can do is call them on it in social media; tell them you are paying attention: @BBC why won't you use the word "illegal" or "unlawful" in the headline? This is far bigger than censure.

I borrowed this and tweeted it. Attributed to you.

Re: UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

#52
post #45

The way this same story has been spun by the BBC worries me. You'd think the news line has to be, as the Guardian and others are reporting, GCHQ mass Internet surveillance was 'unlawful'. The Beeb did go with 'unlawful' in their original headline but the story has since been watered down with sheer wordiness. 'Unlawlful' now appears in the tenth paragraph, below an analysis panel, and is only then included in a quota…

Diffs: http://newsdiffs.org/article-history/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-3...

Re: UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

#53
post #45

The way this same story has been spun by the BBC worries me. You'd think the news line has to be, as the Guardian and others are reporting, GCHQ mass Internet surveillance was 'unlawful'. The Beeb did go with 'unlawful' in their original headline but the story has since been watered down with sheer wordiness. 'Unlawlful' now appears in the tenth paragraph, below an analysis panel, and is only then included in a quota…

That's a great point. About the only thing you can do is call them on it in social media; tell them you are paying attention: @BBC why won't you use the word "illegal" or "unlawful" in the headline? This is far bigger than censure.

I'm going to _try_ to stop reading BBC News instead.

It won't be easy because I've been using it for years. I like the site's navigation and readability but the content is often lacking given their resources.

They did something similar with the Prince Andrew story, reporting his "emphatic" denials before mentioning the allegations.

Clearly, he is innocent until proven guilty. However, the Beeb regularly seems eager to jump to the defense of the powerful rather than scrutinise.

I'm veering way off-topic now but this morning they had a big, brash, bullshit "breaking news" banner for a piece about a tennis player's wedding date.

That may be of interest to the public but it's not in the public interest. Too often the BBC conflates the two as meaning the same thing.

Re: UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

#54
post #45

The way this same story has been spun by the BBC worries me. You'd think the news line has to be, as the Guardian and others are reporting, GCHQ mass Internet surveillance was 'unlawful'. The Beeb did go with 'unlawful' in their original headline but the story has since been watered down with sheer wordiness. 'Unlawlful' now appears in the tenth paragraph, below an analysis panel, and is only then included in a quota…

Even worse, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30345801 "GCHQ does not breach human rights, judges rule". This is ridiculous and insulting.

Re: UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

#55
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be alone here, but while I don't always agree with the laws of the country, I want the government, army, police, and civil service to be acting inside those laws.

I get the impression that the agencies actually do want to act legally. And the government go to great efforts to make sure that these kind of actions are legallised after the fact. I wouldn't be suprised if this ruling is used as an excuse to leave the ECHR. Personally I think it is better to have tight laws that are sometimes broken than loose laws that authorize anything. I understand that there are situations whe…

> Personally I think it is better to have tight laws that are sometimes broken than loose laws that authorize anything.

That's not an unreasonable position, but consider this counterpoint: in the long run, there is more danger in people thinking it's sometimes okay to break laws, than in allowing whatever conduct was going to inevitably happen.

Re: UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

#57
post #45

The way this same story has been spun by the BBC worries me. You'd think the news line has to be, as the Guardian and others are reporting, GCHQ mass Internet surveillance was 'unlawful'. The Beeb did go with 'unlawful' in their original headline but the story has since been watered down with sheer wordiness. 'Unlawlful' now appears in the tenth paragraph, below an analysis panel, and is only then included in a quota…

It looks like the article was rewritten to focus more what what is happening now than what happened in the past. It doesn't look particularly like underhandedness to me

Re: UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

#58
post #55
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression that the agencies actually do want to act legally. And the government go to great efforts to make sure that these kind of actions are legallised after the fact. I wouldn't be suprised if this ruling is used as an excuse to leave the ECHR. Personally I think it is better to have tight laws that are sometimes broken than loose laws that authorize anything. I understand that there are situations whe…

> Personally I think it is better to have tight laws that are sometimes broken than loose laws that authorize anything. That's not an unreasonable position, but consider this counterpoint: in the long run, there is more danger in people thinking it's sometimes okay to break laws, than in allowing whatever conduct was going to inevitably happen.

> That's not an unreasonable position, but consider this counterpoint: in the long run, there is more danger in people thinking it's sometimes okay to break laws, than in allowing whatever conduct was going to inevitably happen.

It seems like the problem is you've got one of these: Low false positives, low false negatives, simple laws; pick two.

To which some people are going to say that we shouldn't have simple laws, but that's really not a good alternative. Even if the law says exactly what you want (which is Hard), the administrative burden of following and enforcing laws that complicated can exceed the benefits.

So if you're stuck choosing between false positives and false negatives, the libertarian position falls out pretty quickly. Because in order to provide deterrence and account for less than 100% enforcement, the penalties for breaking the law are generally much higher than the societal cost of the crime, which means that the government convicting a good person has a much higher societal cost than the government not convicting a bad person. In other words, the laws should err on the side of things not being illegal.

But you're applying this to government action. And there are certainly things government officers can do that justify removing them from the general population and to which the same principle applies. But we have another alternative in this case, which is to remove them from the government. The burden for firing government officers should be a lot lower than for putting them in prison, which means we should reasonably do it a lot more aggressively when there is even the slightest hint of misconduct.

Re: UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

#59
post #45

The way this same story has been spun by the BBC worries me. You'd think the news line has to be, as the Guardian and others are reporting, GCHQ mass Internet surveillance was 'unlawful'. The Beeb did go with 'unlawful' in their original headline but the story has since been watered down with sheer wordiness. 'Unlawlful' now appears in the tenth paragraph, below an analysis panel, and is only then included in a quota…

Have you read the judgement?

It quite literally says they contravened articles 8 or 10 of the ECHR but now comply.

With a quick read up on the ECHR it seems that the judgements made are binding but, since according to the judgement they are now compliant, it doesn't seem like any action will be taken.

Again this is from a view of complete ignorance of the law, but censure seems like the most appropriate word in this case.

Re: UK-US surveillance regime was unlawful ‘for seven years’

#60
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great point. About the only thing you can do is call them on it in social media; tell them you are paying attention: @BBC why won't you use the word "illegal" or "unlawful" in the headline? This is far bigger than censure.

I'm going to _try_ to stop reading BBC News instead. It won't be easy because I've been using it for years. I like the site's navigation and readability but the content is often lacking given their resources. They did something similar with the Prince Andrew story, reporting his "emphatic" denials before mentioning the allegations. Clearly, he is innocent until proven guilty. However, the Beeb regularly seems eager t…

> However, the Beeb regularly seems eager to jump to the defense of the powerful rather than scrutinise.

Well, the one time they got a bit too uppity (on the Iraq invasion), their head was literally cut off.

The UK is a funny country. Lots of freedom, but certain powerful interests simply won't be restrained by things like laws or common decency.

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