Live data from Hacker News

The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

wired.com

51–60 of 60 posts

Re: The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

#51

> According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, about half of all businesses fail within five years. > He [...] thinks that even a model that’s only right about 50 percent of the time could help investors and entrepreneurs avoid particularly bad ideas ...does he have a bridge to sell me too? What am I missing? (One can simply predict "always succeeds" and will be right half the time.)

> (One can simply predict "always succeeds" and will be right half the time.) Considering most businesses fail I don't think that's quite right but I get your point.

Then one could simply predict "always fails" and be right more than half the time, which is an improvement on the 50% claimed.

Re: The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

#52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps what has been missed is the difference between a single coin flip and a combination of coin flips? Consider one startup. f(x) = #fail succeeds better than 50%, and f(x) = #succeed succeeds less than 50%. This is due to the nature of startups. Sure, it's easy to get about 50% accuracy for one startup by flipping a coin: f(x) = if rand(1) > 0.5 then #fail else #succeed But consider the case of two companies A a…

That's... not accurate. There are two success conditions (Fail, Fail) and (Succeed, Succeed), and two failure conditions (Succeed, Fail), (Fail, Succeed). If you flip two coins, the chance that they come up both heads is 25%, but the chance that they come up the same is 50%.

The odds of (#fail, #fail) for two startups (A, B) are much greater than 50%. When investing in two companies (#fail, #fail) is not #success.

At a 1% #success probability the failure rate is ~98%. The 1% #success rate is based on the a knowledgeable person choosing A and independently choosing B. If that person can obtain information that lets them improve their selections to %2 #success probability, they can reduce the total number of investments necessary to achieve any particular expected return on investment.

Reducing the number of investments may improve the investor's ability to influencing the outcome of each company in their portfolio, because the investor can allocate more time, energy, and resources to each company in their portfolio [resuming the investor brings business expertise to the table].

Re: The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

#53
post #12

Too bad that the very best startups are always the outliars (aka without historical data).

Do have any data to back that up? It seems a blanket statement to call "the best" start-ups outliers. What defines "the best" startup?

As the topic was about investments, in the context the best means whichever makes more money I guess. You are right, I have no data to back that up.

Re: The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

#54
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's... not accurate. There are two success conditions (Fail, Fail) and (Succeed, Succeed), and two failure conditions (Succeed, Fail), (Fail, Succeed). If you flip two coins, the chance that they come up both heads is 25%, but the chance that they come up the same is 50%.

The odds of (#fail, #fail) for two startups (A, B) are much greater than 50%. When investing in two companies (#fail, #fail) is not #success. At a 1% #success probability the failure rate is ~98%. The 1% #success rate is based on the a knowledgeable person choosing A and independently choosing B. If that person can obtain information that lets them improve their selections to %2 #success probability, they can reduce…

The article is claiming that the guy can predict which things are going to succeed and which are going to fail, not make them succeed or fail. His evidence for this is that 50% of the time, he's right (e.g. [success, success], [fail, fail] are both success conditions for him). For him to be adding any information to the system, he has to get it right more often than either choosing randomly or using a fixed zero-information strategy (always bet fail/always bet succeed). You explicitly said that the joint probability matters, but then miscalculated the joint probability of him guessing correctly by random chance.

Re: The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

#55
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The odds of (#fail, #fail) for two startups (A, B) are much greater than 50%. When investing in two companies (#fail, #fail) is not #success. At a 1% #success probability the failure rate is ~98%. The 1% #success rate is based on the a knowledgeable person choosing A and independently choosing B. If that person can obtain information that lets them improve their selections to %2 #success probability, they can reduce…

The article is claiming that the guy can predict which things are going to succeed and which are going to fail, not make them succeed or fail. His evidence for this is that 50% of the time, he's right (e.g. [success, success], [fail, fail] are both success conditions for him ). For him to be adding any information to the system, he has to get it right more often than either choosing randomly or using a fixed zero-inf…

I apologize for not making myself clear enough to communicate as effectively as might be hoped.

Re: The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

#56

I wonder if he has applied the algorithim to his firm to improve his chances of survival

Yes. From the article: "According to Thurston’s own model, Growth Science’s own chance of survival following its current business model is about 69 percent. Adding the automated service would actually improve its chances, he says."

Re: The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

#57
Hi Y'all, Thomas here (guy in article). Just want to start by saying (1) this is a very intelligent thread, and (2) I didn't write the article, was just interviewed for it. You never know what's going to be written, no matter what you say.

Here's how the models really play out. We compare our accuracy against the 10 year survivorship benchmark of 25% (not the 5 year). When you look at small businesses, VC-backed, and corporate ventures (ex. new products coming out of companies), the 10 year survival rate is around 25%, plus or minus 10% depending on the industry.

Our models have made thousands of predictions for around nine years now - all the predictions were live, real-time and forward looking (no back-testing included here). From those predictions, around 3,400 have matured to date. That is, only around 3,400 of the results have happened - the businesses have either become big successes (ex. Uber) or failed. In our research, we have to actually wait for businesses to live or die to test our accuracy.

From the roughly 3,400 predictions that have matured, we were right 66% of the time when predicting survivors, and 88% of the time when predicting failures. When we scratched beneath the surface, we were really around 66% accurate in both cases (just most businesses fail, which is why gloomy predictions were 22% more accurate - just a function of dumb luck since most things die).

So we consider our algorithms to be 66% accurate, which is much more accurate than anything we're aware of in human history (remember, the baseline we're compared against is 25%).

If you do a statistical analysis (to make sure our predictions weren't just luck), the models maintained a statistically significant correlation with 99% confidence. There was less than 1 chance in over 500,000 that the results were a function of luck (definitely not a coin toss).

We've used these models in venture, and our performance puts us in the top 5% of all VC funds for our vintage years, so we've monetized these models effectively with real dollars and made considerable gains.

I hope this gives folks a better sense for how it works. There's been a very emotional backlash to the Wired article today (not accusing this thread, just thinking of some others) and it's weird because it's just basic scientific research. Pretty drab stuff on most days, but apparently offensive to some people. Not sure why. We're using statistics to improve venture and startup odds, just like stats have been used to improve just about every other field humans have ever taken seriously. Seems obvious that stats are similarly useful in the startup world, and my dream has always been to help more businesses use stats to succeed.

Anyway, definitely a lot more controversy and emotion than I would have expected. Otherwise pretty basic science, not claiming perfection, just striving for improvement, using data as best we can, etc. I hope at least some folks see this for what it is - nothing out of the ordinary in any other domain of science. Why should entrepreneurship be any different?

Re: The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

#59

Hi Y'all, Thomas here (guy in article). Just want to start by saying (1) this is a very intelligent thread, and (2) I didn't write the article, was just interviewed for it. You never know what's going to be written, no matter what you say. Here's how the models really play out. We compare our accuracy against the 10 year survivorship benchmark of 25% (not the 5 year). When you look at small businesses, VC-backed, and…

So if the baseline is 25% survive, then 75% fail, for a sum of 100%. How is it correct to compare that baseline to two numbers (66% and 88%) which don't sum to 100? Is failing different from not surviving?

Re: The Man Who Knows Whether Any Startup Will Live or Die

#60

Hi Y'all, Thomas here (guy in article). Just want to start by saying (1) this is a very intelligent thread, and (2) I didn't write the article, was just interviewed for it. You never know what's going to be written, no matter what you say. Here's how the models really play out. We compare our accuracy against the 10 year survivorship benchmark of 25% (not the 5 year). When you look at small businesses, VC-backed, and…

So if the baseline is 25% survive, then 75% fail, for a sum of 100%. How is it correct to compare that baseline to two numbers (66% and 88%) which don't sum to 100? Is failing different from not surviving?

Great question - as this thread showed it's a 2x2

Possible outcomes:

1. The models predicted survival, and the business survived 2. Predicted survival, but the business failed 3. Predicted failure, but the business survived, 4. Predicted failure, and the business failed

Here's how our results stacked up: #1. 69% of observations (it wobbles around 66%, but was 69% in the last update) #2. 31% of observations (notice #1 + #2 = 100%. Out of 100% of the times we predicted survival, we were right 69% and wrong 31%) #3. 12% #4. 88% (again, #3 + #4 = 100%. Out of all the times we predicted failure, we were right 88% of the time and wrong 12%).

Again, there's more luck when you predict failure, so it's really around 66% for both positives and negatives when you dig deeper into the stats.

Post reply on HN