Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#51

Post by mathattack » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 8:04 PM UTC

rab_oof wrote: post #40

mathattack wrote: post #36

Remember what the purpose of the exam was... They weren't testing your knowledge, they were testing your social class. At the time Harvard was a school for the white upper crust private school elite of the Northeast. This test ensured that they could fill their classes with just those people. It isn't a perfect meritocracy today, but they've come a long way in being more inclusive.

It's childish to downvote something unwritten that needs saying as important as historical discrimination. Even though the context of society at large was also extremely discriminatory, yet the loss of and failure of not capitalizing on bright minds and talent for any attribute was and is a disgrace. It's unpleasant to say or think about, but it's necessary to be broadly and deeply educated in reality. Also, one coul…

SATs, ACTs, alumni preference and other current admissions policies reinforce biases too, but any admissions standard will. (If it helps to get one into college, wealthy parents will find a way to optimize their kids around it) It's a matter of degree, and in the past, top schools were much worse.

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#52

Post by shin_lao » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 8:05 PM UTC

It is interesting to see that much has happened in Mathematics since 1869. All questions are extremely easy. No real functional analysis. Trivial algebra. Some fairly easy calculus.

The Latin/Greek section is also very easy as everything is provided. When I was a teenager my Latin exams were much more demanding.

The historical section is interesting as it focuses a lot on antic times. It is difficult to judge the difficulty of the question without knowing what was expected.

If anything, this test shows that today standards are much much higher than 1869 standards and I'm not surprised.

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#53

Post by mathattack » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 8:16 PM UTC

shin_lao wrote: post #52

It is interesting to see that much has happened in Mathematics since 1869. All questions are extremely easy. No real functional analysis. Trivial algebra. Some fairly easy calculus. The Latin/Greek section is also very easy as everything is provided. When I was a teenager my Latin exams were much more demanding. The historical section is interesting as it focuses a lot on antic times. It is difficult to judge the dif…

Historical trends have shown that abstract and critical reasoning (what could be termed IQ) has improved over time. [0] Also, remember the context. This exam was for a very small portion of the wealthiest and highest educated elite. That small subset could learn the historical antiquity if they wanted. (And perhaps they still do at Boston Latin) What's amazing is how far the exam's math has been surpassed by broad subsets of today's society.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#54

Post by putzdown » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 8:28 PM UTC

JasonFruit wrote: post #31

What I see here is this: In 1869, as for centuries before, we valued learning that expresses and enables a grasp of over 2000 years of Western culture. In 2015, we barely value the culture of two hundred years ago. I'm innately conservative, I think, and that serious a change in our values worries me.

I see what you're getting at. We open an old test that emphasizes the ability to absorb the wisdom and learning of the past (among its other properties). Then we read a Hacker News comment thread that dismisses the test in various tried-and-true ways: it's just classism, it's primitive, people were dumber then, and so on. The test is by no means serious evidence for academic or intellectual decline or otherwise, but one thing is clear: in yesteryear, educated people honored the yesteryear. Today, we don't.

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#55

Post by simon_ » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

cge wrote: post #46

While the point behind posting these entrance exams is often to make a commentary on a decline in education standards, I'd suggest that it really shows nothing of the sort. The exam is, in fact, rather easy and simplistic, and only seems difficult because of different priorities. The grasp of Latin and Greek required for the language portions is minimal. This is particularly the case because, for the translation port…

What you're saying is only true if you assume the existence of a modern test-prep mentality. Do the applicants know in advance which facts they will be asked to regurgitate, or do they need to understand a wide variety of material at this level of detail?

Also, I really do not agree that the math sections are easy. Students applying for non-quantitative majors are definitely not required to be able to produce non-trivial geometric proofs like this.

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#56

Post by jeffwass » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

bentcorner wrote: post #17

nashashmi wrote: post #13

I learned Latin in high school, and I learned from an old moving picture and from some old CEO who was one of the few who went to college in his time where he picked to major in Latin and math, that Latin had a far more mainstream role in academia, such that it could propel one to a CEO position of a really big company and that it could be used as one of the basis of a college entrance exam. Latin gave me the ability…

I took an intro Latin course in university, and while I didn't get as much out of it as you did, it did give me a great appreciation for understanding the roots of words, and why they mean what they mean.

Wouldn't you get most of that understanding anyway if you took French, Spanish, or another Romance language? Albeit with the added benefit of ability to communicate with a whole new sphere of people?

Not dissing on Latin per se, but other than maybe interest in studying classics, I don't see why one would choose Latin over a living language that can be used in the 'real world'.

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#57

Post by JasonFruit » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

putzdown wrote: post #54

JasonFruit wrote: post #31

What I see here is this: In 1869, as for centuries before, we valued learning that expresses and enables a grasp of over 2000 years of Western culture. In 2015, we barely value the culture of two hundred years ago. I'm innately conservative, I think, and that serious a change in our values worries me.

I see what you're getting at. We open an old test that emphasizes the ability to absorb the wisdom and learning of the past (among its other properties). Then we read a Hacker News comment thread that dismisses the test in various tried-and-true ways: it's just classism, it's primitive, people were dumber then, and so on. The test is by no means serious evidence for academic or intellectual decline or otherwise, but…

That's an excellent restatement of my view, yes. Thank you for reading it thoughtfully.

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#58

Post by monocasa » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

JasonFruit wrote: post #44

monocasa wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue the same for the Greek and Roman empires at their height too.

That depends on what you consider their height: the height of their power, or the height of their culture — which I would argue happened at different times.

Not really, I'd say that in either case my original point still stands.

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#59

Post by L_Rahman » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 10:45 PM UTC

cge wrote: post #46

While the point behind posting these entrance exams is often to make a commentary on a decline in education standards, I'd suggest that it really shows nothing of the sort. The exam is, in fact, rather easy and simplistic, and only seems difficult because of different priorities. The grasp of Latin and Greek required for the language portions is minimal. This is particularly the case because, for the translation port…

I personally found the mathematical section to be a little too easy if possible. Any of the students from the top 10% of my 8th grade class would see those questions and start knocking them off.

To be fair to Harvard, it's never prided itself of being an institution dedicated to the practical application of mathematics or engineering. I suppose it's why I turned down their offer to attend.

Re: Harvard Admission Exam (1869) [pdf]

#60

Post by Svenstaro » Thu, Jan 15, 2015, 11:52 PM UTC

cbd1984 wrote: post #48

Svenstaro wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree. I had Latin in school for 7 years and while I didn't learn as much as I should have, I know enough to discuss about. Latin, as all other languages, wasn't designed, it grew organically. As such, it has many annoying inconsistencies and I don't feel that they add much to the language. Why do you feel Latin might be part of the key to artificial intelligence?

> Latin, as all other languages, wasn't designed To be fair, some languages were designed, such as Volapük, Esperanto, Ido, Lojban, Klingon, Sindarin, Verdurian, and other, less-known examples.

But it's not like they influence any big parts of culture as opposed to Latin which influences pretty much everything since then.