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Racial Bias, Even When We Have Good Intentions

nytimes.com

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Re: Racial Bias, Even When We Have Good Intentions

#51

Post by unclebucknasty »

michaelfdeberry wrote: post #49
unclebucknasty wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that "positive" is the right word here. Biases seem to be frequently double-edged at a minimum. The negative consequence is more obvious in your basketball example. Picking blacks for a basketball team simply because they are black is not positive. It is part of a system of thinking, which says that "blacks are good at these things". The corollary is that "blacks are not good at these other things". So,…

You are correct positive may not be the best term, but I think we are in agreement otherwise

>positive may not be the best term, but I think we are in agreement otherwise

I didn't think we were in agreement, which was why I commented.

My point was that bias generally has an overall negative effect, even when some biases appear to be positive (as you asserted). If you agree, but simply think that "positive" is not the best term, then I don't understand your original comment:

>Depending on what those biases are it could be a positive or negative effect.

That seemed to be your point, in summary, and I don't know what term you'd substitute for "positive" that would be qualitatively different, while not completely dismantling your premise.

Re: Racial Bias, Even When We Have Good Intentions

#52

Post by rmc »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #26
michaelfdeberry wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bias goes both ways and biases effecting social status for Asians are typically positive. For example, if hiring for a Mathematician from three resumes, 1 White, 1 Black, and 1 Asian and being unaware of actual skill, the Asian would likely be considered first. In this case bias helped the Asian get a job that will raise their social status. There are negative biases towards Asians as well, but they don't have much e…

I'm not sure that "positive" is the right word here. Biases seem to be frequently double-edged at a minimum. The negative consequence is more obvious in your basketball example. Picking blacks for a basketball team simply because they are black is not positive. It is part of a system of thinking, which says that "blacks are good at these things". The corollary is that "blacks are not good at these other things". So,…

> I'm not sure that "positive" is the right word here. Biases seem to be frequently double-edged at a minimum.

I've seen the term "benovolent sexism" used for gender roles that are, in theory, complimentary, but in reality are bad for society. e.g. "women are good with children" is in theory a compliment. But in reality it means men who try to work in child care are viewed suspiciously, and women are expected to give up their careers to look after children (because they are better at it!). Benovolent sexism (and hostile sexism (like "women are too emotional to wield power")) are bad.

Likewise, "benovolent racism" is bad.

Re: Racial Bias, Even When We Have Good Intentions

#53

Post by stefantalpalaru »

Houshalter wrote: post #50
stefantalpalaru wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quantitative aspect is more important than the qualitative one. Take dog races (breeds) for example: "We also showed that the genetic variation between dog breeds is much greater than the variation within breeds. Between-breed variation is estimated at 27.5 percent. By comparison, genetic variation between human populations is only 5.4 percent. Thus the concept of a dog breed is very real and can be defined not o…

No one is disputing that dogs are far more genetically diverse than humans. But saying that humans don't cluster into different genetic groups is factually wrong.

I'm saying that genetic clusters that flow gradually one into the other and have minimal differences between them are a distinct notion from race as we see it in other animals.

Re: Racial Bias, Even When We Have Good Intentions

#54

Post by michaelfdeberry »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #51
michaelfdeberry wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct positive may not be the best term, but I think we are in agreement otherwise

> positive may not be the best term, but I think we are in agreement otherwise I didn't think we were in agreement, which was why I commented. My point was that bias generally has an overall negative effect, even when some biases appear to be positive (as you asserted). If you agree, but simply think that "positive" is not the best term, then I don't understand your original comment: > Depending on what those biases…

In context of the comment I was initially replying, regarding how Asians are considered a counter example, I think positive is the correct term.

My initial post was strictly to point out the original posters bias towards Asians.

So my point, in context of the original post, is that bias towards Asians give then a higher social standing. Which I do consider a positive when compared to other groups.

Your initial post seemed to be more in general, and I agree that all bias has some negativity to it.

Re: Racial Bias, Even When We Have Good Intentions

#55

Post by unclebucknasty »

michaelfdeberry wrote: post #54
unclebucknasty wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> positive may not be the best term, but I think we are in agreement otherwise I didn't think we were in agreement, which was why I commented. My point was that bias generally has an overall negative effect, even when some biases appear to be positive (as you asserted). If you agree, but simply think that "positive" is not the best term, then I don't understand your original comment: > Depending on what those biases…

In context of the comment I was initially replying, regarding how Asians are considered a counter example, I think positive is the correct term. My initial post was strictly to point out the original posters bias towards Asians. So my point, in context of the original post, is that bias towards Asians give then a higher social standing. Which I do consider a positive when compared to other groups. Your initial post s…

Understood. Thanks for clarifying.

Re: Racial Bias, Even When We Have Good Intentions

#56

Post by Hytosys »

rmc wrote: post #19
Hytosys wrote: post #6

This article raises a question: how does one train their "fast" thinking? If someone reads this article and recalls all of the times that at least internally they passed a wrong judgement based on another's race, what can they do to prevent immediately thinking such things? I don't much like this intuitive answer: if you're simply aware of your tendency to erroneously judge, you can consciously act against it. Is the…

One way is to hide the information from yourself. I've heard of orchestras hiring by getting the applicant to play their instrument behind a screen. You can't see them, can't see their race/ethnicity, or gender. The only information you can use is the only information you should be using: how they play.

I wasn't satisfied with this answer for a whole week, but now I'm trying to figure out ways to integrate that hiring technique to hiring in other fields (programming, especially). Thanks!
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