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CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

amanpour.blogs.cnn.com

51–60 of 138 posts

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#51
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prestige hit and vulnerability to "letting down the troops" criticisms will ensure this doesn't happen.

It will never happen because the prosecution would logically include Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and some legislators. I don't see a Republican administration prosecuting them because of loyalty, and I don't see a Democratic one doing that because I suspect Pelosi and Obama could be prosecuted as well (if new evidence comes to light). And without going after the very highest level offenders, you're throwing the CIA…

It speaks volumes that it is up to the executive whether to prosecute former executives.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#52
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real reason is that they were carrying out the official policy of the US government. Just calling it CIA torture is minimizing how far up this went. Bush ordered it. DOD knew. DOJ not only knew, it crafted the governments tortured definition of torture. Congress knew. This isn't some off the books CIA wet team opp. It was planned and signed off at the highest levels. John Yoo, who wrote the torture memos, is a pr…

The fact that "24" with Jack Bauer routinely using torture ran for eight years with high ratings surely reflected the US public's tacit approval.

Yeah and the popularity of the Sopranos showed tacit approval of the American mobsters.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#53
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that "24" with Jack Bauer routinely using torture ran for eight years with high ratings surely reflected the US public's tacit approval.

I don't think you can sensibly infer anything of the sort from television ratings. As I recall, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and Dexter all rated pretty well too.

Jack Bauer is supposed to be the good guy; good guys aren't supposed to use torture, yet he does.

I don't know about other shows, did "good guys" use torture ? Were they able to walk away without any problems ?

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#54
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> until real revolution in US, or some sort of vigilantism movement America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. Maybe that counts as a revolution, but the way you paired it with "vigiliantism movement" suggested some kind of violence or government overthrow which would be pretty awful to be honest and I hope never happens in my life time or the…

>America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. No, one of two things is needed: either a revolution, or a mass migration of voters to places where their votes actually count. Both gerrymandering and the tendency of American seat allocation to favor rural districts have strongly reduced the effect of voting on the formation of actual governments.

"Seat allocation" doesn't favor rural districts, it favors many districts where you win 51% of the vote over few districts where you win 80%. You'd actually need gerrymandering to reverse this effect if, like today's Democratic party, your voters are concentrated in urban areas that would otherwise be perfectly natural districts to draw.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#56
post #7

Keep in mind, 23 CIA employees have already been convicted and sentenced by an Italian court for a rendition operation. None of these people can be located.

The Italians can go pound sand. They had no problem allowing the lead Achille Lauro hijacker safe passage to Egypt. And in 2008 they release another Achille hijacker -- a murderer and PLO terrorist. I don't really care if the Italians had their sensibilities offended by rendition. Rendition never resulted in an Italian citizen's death, but the Achille Lauro incident certainly resulted in an American's death. I am not…

Nobody's clean, everybody got that. Can we move on, and aim for the best solution ?

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. No, one of two things is needed: either a revolution, or a mass migration of voters to places where their votes actually count. Both gerrymandering and the tendency of American seat allocation to favor rural districts have strongly reduced the effect of voting on the formation of actual governments.

"Seat allocation" doesn't favor rural districts, it favors many districts where you win 51% of the vote over few districts where you win 80%. You'd actually need gerrymandering to reverse this effect if, like today's Democratic party, your voters are concentrated in urban areas that would otherwise be perfectly natural districts to draw.

>"Seat allocation" doesn't favor rural districts,

Yes it does, at least in the sense that "rural" means "low population density" or "low ratio of population to Congressional seats".

>[T]he Senate may be the least democratic legislative chamber in any developed nation.

>In the last few years, 41 senators representing as little as a third of the nation’s population have frequently blocked legislation, as the filibuster (or the threat of it) has become a routine part of Senate business.

>In this country, the ratio between Wyoming’s representation and California’s is 66 to 1.

This means that if you are a software or computer engineer living in California, as is the norm here on Hacker News, you have 1/66 the Senatorial voting power as anyone at all who happens to live in Wyoming.

>This pattern has policy consequences, notably ones concerning the environment. “Nations with malapportioned political systems have lower gasoline taxes (and lower pump prices) than nations with more equitable representation of urban constituencies,” two political scientists, J. Lawrence Broz and Daniel Maliniak, wrote in a recent study. Such countries also took longer to ratify the Kyoto Protocol on climate change, if they ratified it at all. These differences were, they wrote, a consequence of the fact that “rural voters in industrialized countries rely more heavily on fossil fuels than urban voters.”

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/03/11/us/politics/de...

Emphases mine. But please, explain to me why the voting majority should be consistently denied implementation of their ideas just to cater to people who happen to live where there aren't many other people? That's before we consider the influence of money on elections.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#58
post #53
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can sensibly infer anything of the sort from television ratings. As I recall, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and Dexter all rated pretty well too.

Jack Bauer is supposed to be the good guy; good guys aren't supposed to use torture, yet he does. I don't know about other shows, did "good guys" use torture ? Were they able to walk away without any problems ?

Don't underestimate the power of fiction. Heroes are not necessarily "good." Read some Dashiell Hammett for example.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#59
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will never happen because the prosecution would logically include Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and some legislators. I don't see a Republican administration prosecuting them because of loyalty, and I don't see a Democratic one doing that because I suspect Pelosi and Obama could be prosecuted as well (if new evidence comes to light). And without going after the very highest level offenders, you're throwing the CIA…

It speaks volumes that it is up to the executive whether to prosecute former executives.

Yes, talking about Montesquieu and all that division of powers... What a joke.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prosecuting those who committed illegal acts, even though they were assured of immunity, sends a clear message that individuals are still responsible for their actions. They weren't really offered immunity, they were assured by the Office of Legal Counsel that they were doing something legal. Get bad advice from your lawyer as to what is legal and what isn't, go commit a crime, and see what happens.

For a counterpoint, you might want to look into Argentina's "Law of due obedience"[1]. Of course, Argentinean law doesn't affect US law, but the fact that this law was eventually repealed sets an international precedent that "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense from prosecution. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_de_Obediencia_Debida

"I was just following orders" has already been established as an insufficient defense in the 1946 Nuremberg trials and essentially all later trials against WW 2 war criminals. It is by now pretty well established that crimes against humanity in general and torture in particular are not justifiable.
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