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Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#51

Post by Retra »

Fuzzwah wrote: post #47
atmosx wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me is strange for anyone to choose a life where he is absolutely not free, just to get a college degree. Degree or not, having jail time in your resume will have a (extremely?) negative impact.

What about people joining the army for just this reason?

You don't lose that much freedom in the military. At least, most of the things you would be permitted from doing are things that you wouldn't need/want to do anyway.

But I suppose you could say the same about prison, for some people.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#52

Post by Retra »

anigbrowl wrote: post #46
arethuza wrote: post #3

I wonder if there are any schemes making e-book readers available in prisons - no danger of smuggling in drugs in a stream of bytes!

Funny you should ask. This company aims to provide modified iPads to prisons and jails. SF county has signed onto the scheme: http://apdscorporate.com/ This company already has a heavily locked-down tablet and provides a way for relatives to buy music for or send email or donate money to prisoners: http://blog.jpay.com/mini-tablet-for-prisons-now-available-i... Victims' rights groups are not very happy about this: ht…

Surely they could go with something cheaper than iPads?

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#53

Post by AnthonyMouse »

tptacek wrote: post #35
ceejayoz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Governor of New York proposed giving prisoners in essence a community college education while incarcerated. Outcry from the public and lawmakers made him shelve the concept, despite studies showing massive drops in recidivism from such things.

Moralism aside, there's a point at which prisoner benefits can create an incentive to commit crimes. Not rape and murder, of course, but if you're 18 years old and driftless and already weighing the costs and benefits of, say, a commercial B&E, the fact that your worst case scenario includes a college education will have an impact. I'm not silly enough to think it would make criminals out of people who weren't alread…

There is an extent to which this is already the case. If you're homeless and unemployed, three hots and a cot starts to sound mighty attractive.

The obvious solution is to make sure the same benefits are available to the general public without the requirement of criminality.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#54

Post by bainsfather »

kahirsch wrote: post #28
bainsfather wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the uk, prisoners get sent other parcels, they of course are screened. No real reason for not allowing books. This ban was just the prisons minister playing to the tabloid press. "a better option would be to fix the availability of library services to prisoners" - alas, this is not even a bad joke. In e.g. high security prisons, you might get to visit the library once every 4 weeks. If (or these days, more often t…

The first sentence of the article is "Under the current rules prisoners are prevented from receiving parcels unless they have 'exceptional circumstances', such as a medical condition."

Yes, I saw that, and I thought it was incorrect. After some digging:

This does not apply to remand prisoners.

Convicted prisoners get 1 parcel of clothing after conviction (at the governer's discretion).

Also exceptional circumstances "could include for example ... replace clothing due to restricted access to laundry facilities."

Source: Prison Service Instructions 30-2013 Section 10.4, 10.5 and also annex F.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#55

Post by ceejayoz »

Xeoncross wrote: post #43
Elrac wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US penal system is shockingly big on vengeance over resocialization. America's Christian fundamentalists like it that way because they claim as their own the worst personality flaws of their ancient Jewish war god. And American politicians know they can easily collect a few more votes by acting "tougher on crime."

As an American Christian I believe nothing of the sort. What is your source for this ad hominem claim? The bible actually doesn't support the idea of prisons at all. If someone murders, then they need to be put to death. Otherwise, theft, drugs, and all other crimes are best handled outside of a prison system that does very little to help a person recover from their problems. Christ advocated restoring a person. Secu…

Not sure if it was a ninja-edit, but the poster appears to be talking about fundamentalist Protestants, who do tend to have a more Old Testament take on things than Christ's teachings.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#56

Post by MichaelGG »

atmosx wrote: post #40
tptacek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moralism aside, there's a point at which prisoner benefits can create an incentive to commit crimes. Not rape and murder, of course, but if you're 18 years old and driftless and already weighing the costs and benefits of, say, a commercial B&E, the fact that your worst case scenario includes a college education will have an impact. I'm not silly enough to think it would make criminals out of people who weren't alread…

To me is strange for anyone to choose a life where he is absolutely not free, just to get a college degree. Degree or not, having jail time in your resume will have a (extremely?) negative impact.

How pervasive is that attitude? I've worked with plenty of people with records. So long it's not something real violent or something lame/morally questionable (robbing an old woman because you're her financial advisor) the only real question I think of is "why were you caught" and if that is strong evidence of anything else. Like, it could indicate a poor understanding of information theory, or badly calibrated risk assessment.

Someone committing a nonviolent crime to get free room and board and college, of explained, sounds rather clever. Most people end up in significant debt for a similar outcome. (And low security prison in the US isn't so bad, about the same level as sharing a 2 star hotel room with a coworker, from what I've seen.)

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#57

Post by tptacek »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #53
tptacek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moralism aside, there's a point at which prisoner benefits can create an incentive to commit crimes. Not rape and murder, of course, but if you're 18 years old and driftless and already weighing the costs and benefits of, say, a commercial B&E, the fact that your worst case scenario includes a college education will have an impact. I'm not silly enough to think it would make criminals out of people who weren't alread…

There is an extent to which this is already the case. If you're homeless and unemployed, three hots and a cot starts to sound mighty attractive. The obvious solution is to make sure the same benefits are available to the general public without the requirement of criminality.

Since the obvious solution is politically intractable and would require fundamentally altering the way all resources are allocated and collected by the government, you can see why a program to extend that benefit only to prisoners (which, but for the optics, might have been tractable) would cause an uproar.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#58

Post by notahacker »

lotsofmangos wrote: post #36
Retra wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we shouldn't give prisoners free room, board, and healthcare over the public while we're at it.

There are already some attempts to charge those in custody for room, board and medical procedures, even going as far as trying to charge for involuntary procedures involved in searches. Or police requiring $3,000 for property damage for getting blood on their uniforms after beating up a guy with a different middle name as who they were looking for. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/us/in-riverside-california... http:…

I thought that Davis link was the most remarkable thing I'd ever seen. Then I Googled the back story, and found out that the officer lodging the complaint had also sworn in court that the Davis didn't bleed on him when the police department was sued, and then having somehow avoided a perjury charge, received a commendation from Ferguson City Council this year. And that one of the other officers involved is also facing a lawsuit for tasering a man to death. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-day-fer... http://www.fergusoncity.com/Archive/ViewFile/Item/236

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#59

Post by GigabyteCoin »

tptacek wrote: post #35
ceejayoz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Governor of New York proposed giving prisoners in essence a community college education while incarcerated. Outcry from the public and lawmakers made him shelve the concept, despite studies showing massive drops in recidivism from such things.

Moralism aside, there's a point at which prisoner benefits can create an incentive to commit crimes. Not rape and murder, of course, but if you're 18 years old and driftless and already weighing the costs and benefits of, say, a commercial B&E, the fact that your worst case scenario includes a college education will have an impact. I'm not silly enough to think it would make criminals out of people who weren't alread…

>Moralism aside, there's a point at which prisoner benefits can create an incentive to commit crimes.

That already exists in our current prison system. Here in Toronto, 'criminals' are found every year standing beside broken windows of downtown businesses late at night because they couldn't stand the frigid cold and the homeless shelters were full. All they usually want is a warm place to sleep and some food that didn't come out of a dumpster.

While the prospect of running a lucrative commercial B&E enterprise with the "worst case scenario" including a college education might be tempting...

You will still be a known criminal to your family and friends, which will take years to change their opinion of you if at all possible. Nobody will feel comfortable leaving you alone in their home. Nobody will allow their children to approach you. Your options for employment will drop drastically once you are released from prison.

You will still lack freedom. Feel like taking a jog in the park? Not for another 10 years, you can't.

Etc.

If the above seem like a better scenario than your current situation, perhaps you need some guidance in a community college type setting.

Re: Prison book ban ruled unlawful by High Court

#60

Post by anigbrowl »

Retra wrote: post #52
anigbrowl wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you should ask. This company aims to provide modified iPads to prisons and jails. SF county has signed onto the scheme: http://apdscorporate.com/ This company already has a heavily locked-down tablet and provides a way for relatives to buy music for or send email or donate money to prisoners: http://blog.jpay.com/mini-tablet-for-prisons-now-available-i... Victims' rights groups are not very happy about this: ht…

Surely they could go with something cheaper than iPads?

They're probably not using the latest models or have some deal with Apple similar to an education discount. I don't know what the business logic is.
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