Obviously this is a theme that has been explored in SF a fair amount (recent examples include Ken Macleod's The Restoration Game and Iain Banks' Surface Detail). One obvious problem is that it appears to be highly immoral to generate a simulation in which millions or billions of sentient beings suffer, which presumably would weigh heavier on a more advanced species (human or otherwise).
It is pretty easy to ignore the suffering of others if you can convince yourself that it is a different and simpler form of suffering than you feel -- just look at how a lot of humans (and I'm talking about ones that are accepted by society, not crazy psychopaths) treat animals (eg. circus elephants).
Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
51–60 of 67 posts
Re: Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
#52There is a very general argument that we can't simulate anything remotely resembling our universe inside our universe: http://www.tjradcliffe.com/?p=1220 Short version: at the precision required for the degree of agreement we see between theory and experiment, we could simulate at most 0.5% of our universe, which simulation would not be capable of star formation because there wouldn't be enough matter in it, and a un…
The only valid answer, I think, is that nor we, nor any other lifeform, will never be able to do so. And it's impossible to predict whether we will be able to do that or not, but everything points out to the answer being yes!
But please, give me an answer I didn't think of.
PS: I completely hate the simulation argument, as it stands, as you can see in my answer to the top post.
Re: Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
#53Lets take the state transition view of it. Our PCs, phones or any other physical thing that we agree is a system 'that computes' is just following the laws of physics, or state evolution. We engineer the initial condition so that it converges to something that is of interest to us. So does it mean it is necessary for the existence of a conscious observer / intervener / interpreter of state for something to be deemed a 'computation' ?
Even if no one is there to observe a particular state or have interest in it, if the system happens to be initialized at some state it would 'compute' the result (end state) no matter what. So what would be that fundamental difference between a simulation and a universe following physical laws ? I think the issue is not whether this is a simulation but whether someone is consciously simulating it. The thing is that it need not be an external entity, embedded entities themselves may reside (perhaps voluntarily) in a simulated experience (hallucinogenic drugs), insanity (socially imposed conformance / compliance), schizophrenia.
The notion of reality is messy business that ties one up in knots. What I find interesting is how two ancient cultures : (i) native American and (ii) Indian thought about it, how they answered when I am dreaming is that real or is that fake. It is really hard to argue that what we call real is a more privileged position than the dream world or a hallucination when we are in it. Some native American philosophies decided that both are equally real. If some one flies in a hallucinogenic trip the person is really flying in that world. There are ways to get in and out of those worlds. The ancient Indians or the vedic philosophers took another route, they chose that both these worlds are just equally unreal.
The question of whether this real or not is pretty much as old as thought.
Re: Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
#54Energy, though. I mean, the host universe may have completely different laws of nature, but assuming that the 2nd law exists in it... Organising information (storing it in RAM, carving it on a rock...) decreases entropy and thus takes work (entropy overall increases, because you had to get the energy to do your work by increasing entropy somewhere else by more.) The cost of accurately simulating an entire universe, d…
You assume that our [observable, hypothesized] universe isn't a pittance of matter and energy in a larger universe. Suppose your Conway's Game of Life simulation gained what it considered sentience, and with this sentience contemplated whether this world it inhabits was the universe or a simulation. Now suppose that it deduced that it would take universes of energy to simulate its own universe. Well, it'd be right. T…
Re: Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
#55Energy, though. I mean, the host universe may have completely different laws of nature, but assuming that the 2nd law exists in it... Organising information (storing it in RAM, carving it on a rock...) decreases entropy and thus takes work (entropy overall increases, because you had to get the energy to do your work by increasing entropy somewhere else by more.) The cost of accurately simulating an entire universe, d…
> At which point, the question becomes, why not just observe the real universe? I don't think the 'why' is the right question to ponder. It's really a matter of 'if'. We lack the context to adequately answer 'why' one might decide to create a simulation of a universe. Any(one/thing) capable of putting such a simulation together is about as different from us as we are from bacteria. Therefore, considering motivation i…
I'm sorry, I never was one for philosophy. How does that follow?
Re: Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
#56I think there could be some interesting conclusions or capabilities from being in a simulation. First, we would expect that the simulation may use heuristics; that some things not "observed" may be simulated in a quicker or more crude way. Second, there may be a way to access the computational substrate. If the universe exists within a simulation, is there a way to run software directly against the universe "computer…
I mean our simulations are just code running calculations, we don't have code that gives our programs a self awareness. I would say this would be many simulations, unless they are only running my point of view and you are all just simple code. You see we are all giving output then we are all small simulations together If it is just me then they are just looking at my output and you are just something I interact with, I cant tell if you can see, feel or make your own choices.
Anywho, whatever we are, we are.
And its not unrealistic for scientists to try and simulate something with as much detail as possible. If we simulate 3 planets, we give them a (to us) realistic colour representation. If you are simulating a world with beings that experience the simulations as if it was real life, you could easily make them all the same but not make them realise. But why wouldn't you make a real representation.
Re: Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
#57I think there could be some interesting conclusions or capabilities from being in a simulation. First, we would expect that the simulation may use heuristics; that some things not "observed" may be simulated in a quicker or more crude way. Second, there may be a way to access the computational substrate. If the universe exists within a simulation, is there a way to run software directly against the universe "computer…
Re: Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
#58There is a very general argument that we can't simulate anything remotely resembling our universe inside our universe: http://www.tjradcliffe.com/?p=1220 Short version: at the precision required for the degree of agreement we see between theory and experiment, we could simulate at most 0.5% of our universe, which simulation would not be capable of star formation because there wouldn't be enough matter in it, and a un…
Re: Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
#59Obviously this is a theme that has been explored in SF a fair amount (recent examples include Ken Macleod's The Restoration Game and Iain Banks' Surface Detail). One obvious problem is that it appears to be highly immoral to generate a simulation in which millions or billions of sentient beings suffer, which presumably would weigh heavier on a more advanced species (human or otherwise).
Humans have no problem in letting billions suffer in real life. Are beings in a simulation "sentient"? This seems illogical.
Re: Is reality a computer simulation? Does it matter?
#60Are you kidding! Of course it matters!! If it's a VM, we can start hacking it, until we find the universal equivalent of a buffer overflow or some kind of edge case branch mispredictoin, and can start injecting our own payload. After a little bootstrapping, and experimentation that hopefully doesn't crash the VM, we are now running whatever physical laws we want. Matrix time!
Or some watchdog system will detect an abnormal behaiour, stop the simulation and report the bug to the developers. They'll fix bugs and run the simulation from the last non-corrupted backup. And we'll never know that someone did that.