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Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

theguardian.com

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Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#51

Post by drewrv »

usernamepc wrote: post #46
gxs wrote: post #20

When I graduated from colllege I started working at a top tech company on a contract to hire. The company was paid 50/hr fore and I was paid 20 an hour. When I asked for more, the indian-born Indian CEO of the company went apeshit on me. No real story only that almost everyone is scum. It's not just the companies. When I told the director of my org what I was getting paid she hired me full time right away at a compet…

There are two reasons (both sort of hard to fix) for why contracting is screwed up. 1. Co-employment- Large companies like Google or Apple would love to hire contractors directly but are very scared of being sued by contractors that can claim they were actually employees-not contractors because of the unclear rules around who is/is not an employee. So they introduce a staffing agency in between to become the 'employe…

> Large companies don't like to advertise that they hire contractors. Do you know the reason for this?

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#52

Post by crdoconnor »

winter_blue wrote: post #38
induscreep wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the "something else" just money? The employer gets an employee who is afraid to ask for a raise, since that might mean losing immigration status and returning to a (not as comfortable) life in their home country. With the green card process taking a few good years, the employer has an indentured servant. Indian born CEO or American born, money is money to them. Immigration reform is essential. If someone on a t…

> If H1Bs were not tied to employers I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit repeated over and over again. Let me say this once: H1B workers are not tied down to a particular employer. It used to be the case that the were , but in 2000, Congress passed a law (known as "AC21") which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happene…

>I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit repeated over and over again. Let me say this once: H1B workers are not tied down to a particular employer. > >It used to be the case that the were, but in 2000, Congress passed a law (known as "AC21") which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happened over and over again.

If you are fired or laid off there is no grace period to find a new job. So, if you are lucky and you time it right you can transfer to a new employer. If you don't, hard luck and get out.

So it is false to say that you are not tied to your employer. The tie is there, it is has just weakened since 2000.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#53

Post by fpgeek »

induscreep wrote: post #50
crdoconnor wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual wages are always lower, but the following can and often do end up ballooning the overall cost of the venture: * Lower quality net result (& higher support costs). * Additional headcount * Higher coordination costs (e.g. paying these bloodsuckers) The point is that it goes ahead even when it makes no financial sense even 5-6 years out because management prefers a pliant, docile, easily controlled workforce.

> management prefers a pliant, docile, easily controlled workforce I am trying to understand why, and what the incentive is. If the overall cost balloons up, what is it about a docile workforce that is so lucrative to these companies? Ability to pay lower wages? Not having to search for replacement employees every now and then?

Who said a docile workforce is lucrative for the companies? There are many reasons they may not be. However, in most cases, "the company" doesn't make these decisions - managers do. And plenty of managers prefer a docile workforce whether or not it's good for the bottom line.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#54

Post by here_you_go »

selmnoo wrote: post #3

This bullying persists at the bottom of a complex system that supplies workers to some of America’s richest and most successful companies, such as Cisco Systems, Verizon and Apple. I find this extremely confusing, why companies like Facebook and Apple and others in SV, that're sitting on an unbelievable shitload of cash take filthy shortcuts like this, screw the very people that work for them so badly. I mean, seriou…

Why?

Because

a) it's profitable, and

b) they can. That's all, really.

Excessive money (== power == domination of your peers) corrupts everybody. We don't need any new studies to prove this.

That's the sick part of our economic culture - the "natural" tendency of concentration of money/power (instead of spreading it as equally as possible).

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#55

Post by eli_gottlieb »

selmnoo wrote: post #3

This bullying persists at the bottom of a complex system that supplies workers to some of America’s richest and most successful companies, such as Cisco Systems, Verizon and Apple. I find this extremely confusing, why companies like Facebook and Apple and others in SV, that're sitting on an unbelievable shitload of cash take filthy shortcuts like this, screw the very people that work for them so badly. I mean, seriou…

Why on Earth would a for-profit, capitalist corporation not force down labor wages to maximize profits? Maximizing profits is their sole imperative. They do not love you, nor do they hate you, but your labor has a market value they can use for something else ;-).

If we don't like it, we can unionize.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#56

Post by crdoconnor »

induscreep wrote: post #50
crdoconnor wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual wages are always lower, but the following can and often do end up ballooning the overall cost of the venture: * Lower quality net result (& higher support costs). * Additional headcount * Higher coordination costs (e.g. paying these bloodsuckers) The point is that it goes ahead even when it makes no financial sense even 5-6 years out because management prefers a pliant, docile, easily controlled workforce.

> management prefers a pliant, docile, easily controlled workforce I am trying to understand why, and what the incentive is. If the overall cost balloons up, what is it about a docile workforce that is so lucrative to these companies? Ability to pay lower wages? Not having to search for replacement employees every now and then?

>what is it about a docile workforce that is so lucrative to these companies

It is not just about the money. It is about the power, too.

It is peculiar naivete unique to our dominant school of economics to think that the bottom line is at the heart of every decision made by C level executives.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#57

Post by ars_technician »

crdoconnor wrote: post #17
rtpg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some saying about rich people being cheap is what made them rich in the first place, but I'm not super convinced this carries over into business. It is extremely frustrating that a lot of tech companies have ended up like so many other companies : caring only about that dollar metric, and not considering the human aspect. So what if it costs more? At least you can feel better about yourself for not treating p…

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/11/4086.full "Seven studies using experimental and naturalistic methods reveal that upper-class individuals behave more unethically than lower-class individuals. In studies 1 and 2, upper-class individuals were more likely to break the law while driving, relative to lower-class individuals. In follow-up laboratory studies, upper-class individuals were more likely to exhibit unethical d…

The research that comes from this particular UC Berkeley group is frankly terrible. One of the studies to see if rich people break the law was done by seeing if BMW drivers follow traffic laws less frequently than other cars. It completely ignores that many rich people don't get BMWs and that many are just middle class "car" people.

Their experiments are essentially an extension of their preconceived notions and the fact that their many flaws don't keep it from being published is a black mark on that entire field of "research".

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#58

Post by eli_gottlieb »

usernamepc wrote: post #46
gxs wrote: post #20

When I graduated from colllege I started working at a top tech company on a contract to hire. The company was paid 50/hr fore and I was paid 20 an hour. When I asked for more, the indian-born Indian CEO of the company went apeshit on me. No real story only that almost everyone is scum. It's not just the companies. When I told the director of my org what I was getting paid she hired me full time right away at a compet…

There are two reasons (both sort of hard to fix) for why contracting is screwed up. 1. Co-employment- Large companies like Google or Apple would love to hire contractors directly but are very scared of being sued by contractors that can claim they were actually employees-not contractors because of the unclear rules around who is/is not an employee. So they introduce a staffing agency in between to become the 'employe…

>How to Fix- Labor laws would need to change, making it clear to companies how they can hire contractors without becoming liable to be held as employers.

Except that the entire reason these laws exist is because tech companies have been caught using people as contractors permanently, "laying them off" on a consistent seasonable basis, and then "rehiring" them again as "contractors". A permanently-employed worker needs to legally be considered a full-time employee and be taxed/benefited as such.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#59

Post by eli_gottlieb »

induscreep wrote: post #50
crdoconnor wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual wages are always lower, but the following can and often do end up ballooning the overall cost of the venture: * Lower quality net result (& higher support costs). * Additional headcount * Higher coordination costs (e.g. paying these bloodsuckers) The point is that it goes ahead even when it makes no financial sense even 5-6 years out because management prefers a pliant, docile, easily controlled workforce.

> management prefers a pliant, docile, easily controlled workforce I am trying to understand why, and what the incentive is. If the overall cost balloons up, what is it about a docile workforce that is so lucrative to these companies? Ability to pay lower wages? Not having to search for replacement employees every now and then?

It's not necessarily lucrative at all. Many managers confuse personal power with collective profit, and are crafting their departments to be lord over a fiefdom rather than to contribute maximally to the business.

People are not rational market actors, especially not deep within organizations.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#60

Post by drawkbox »

selmnoo wrote: post #3

This bullying persists at the bottom of a complex system that supplies workers to some of America’s richest and most successful companies, such as Cisco Systems, Verizon and Apple. I find this extremely confusing, why companies like Facebook and Apple and others in SV, that're sitting on an unbelievable shitload of cash take filthy shortcuts like this, screw the very people that work for them so badly. I mean, seriou…

> screw the very people that work for them so badly

Actually, it is something they probably strive for if they would also do other highly illegal/unethical practices: http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/11/technology/silicon-valley-po...

The 'unbelievable shitload of cash' tends to make little power hungry kings.

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