Live data from Hacker News

The LaTeX cargo cult

joshparsons.net

51–60 of 134 posts

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#51
post #38

The biggest advantage of latex is that by (mostly) separating content from presentation, you can use revision control systems like git or svn to collaborate on papers. You can be in that final hour before the paper submission deadline, on a skype call with four authors scattered around the world, all simultaneously editing the paper (each using whatever tools they prefer), and be reasonably confident it won't all end…

Isn't this also a feature of ASCII-based markup languages, which the author suggests as the right alternative to LaTeX?

I'm old enough to have collaborated on papers using troff (strictly speaking psroff) and sccs as a revision control system, long before latex became popular and PDF didn't yet exist. So, yes, the primary requirement is, as you say, for an ASCII-based markup system to enable this workflow.

However, latex is extremely good at flowing text while applying good style guidelines. Most of the time you know that extending a paragraph by a line won't make anything bad happen - no titles left at the bottom of a page, acceptable stretch of line spacing, and things like that. Of course you can only push this so far before you have to fiddle about moving figures to the right page, etc. This is probably unavoidable, although it would be better to have a bit more direct control over where floats end up. The key thing is that latex does mostly get the small stuff right, so you're not constantly yelling at your collaborators for breaking anything.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#52
All hard (but honest) LaTeX fans may enjoy reading my old post about LaTeX, which is somehow loosely related (I hope I'm not overstretching it :>).

Getting things done in LaTeX (or not)

http://abyss.przemoc.net/post/28208254393/getting-things-don...

Surely any modern complete (La)TeX replacement would be a good thing to have, but I haven't found out any yet, so LaTeX IMHO still remains one of the best choices when it comes to writing/publishing stuff.

I think that reStructuredText could be a nice foundation for some more generic writing/publishing solution, where TeX notation could be still uded for math environments (as I don't know any better one for that). Markdown is too vague, imprecise and inflexible, and CommonMark - a strongly specified, highly compatible implementation of Markdown - is not much better, mostly due to Markdown compatibility.

EDIT: AsciiDoc could be also used instead of reST.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#53
post #44

I think LaTeX has one disadvantage and it is not mentioned in the linked article. It has nothing to do with this "Cargo cult" thing, which I'm not sure it used correctly in this text but nevermind that. The disadvantage is, that while LaTeX has an excellent support for PDF or PS its support for e.g. EPUB is awful. Otherwise there is nothing better to write longer text than LaTeX.

The whole article is exactly about that point. Epub is just a packaged set of html pages, for which tex is horrible, because it's page-centric.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#54
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doc format is not documented, obviously.

The doc (and docx) formats are actually very well documented, thanks to pressure from the EU: [MS-DOC]: Word (.doc) Binary File Format http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/office/cc313153(v=of... [MS-DOCX]: Word Extensions to the Office Open XML (.docx) File Format http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd773189(v=office.12...

Yep, having options / tags that whose definition is LITERALLY "do whatever [some ancient version of Word] does" is totes well-documented.

Implementable, on the other hand, not so much...

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#55
May be specialized applications giving a WYSIWYG editor while using LaTeX in the background be useful? Like the one we have built: www.cvsintellect.com. Its a CV / Résumé builder built on LaTeX but the user does not need to know LaTeX.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#56
post #44

I think LaTeX has one disadvantage and it is not mentioned in the linked article. It has nothing to do with this "Cargo cult" thing, which I'm not sure it used correctly in this text but nevermind that. The disadvantage is, that while LaTeX has an excellent support for PDF or PS its support for e.g. EPUB is awful. Otherwise there is nothing better to write longer text than LaTeX.

> The disadvantage is, that while LaTeX has an excellent support for PDF or PS its support for e.g. EPUB is awful.

Well, yeah, but ePub is just a packaging format for HTML as input to a system that does its own layout and pagination, LaTeX is a layout/pagination system. Using it to generate ePub makes about as much sense as using ePub reading system to generate LaTeX.

It'd be better to just have end-user device-side apps that compiled LaTeX to PS/PDF/etc. after plugging in a device-appropriate page size, using LaTex as the distribution format and the rendered format as the viewing format than to use LaTeX to generate ePub

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#58
Philosophy journals won't accept manuscripts typeset in LaTeX?!

Journal publishers charge thousands of dollars for subscriptions to individual journals. It seems reasonable to occasionally expect publishers to, you know, do the work for which they are being paid. (And to do it competently.)

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#59

LaTeX is a good idea with a terrible implementation. The popularity of markdown (+variants) is a testament to the usefulness of plain text writing. However, LaTeX syntax is a clunky and the ecosystem is a scrapheap-challenge amalgamation of packages with assorted cross-incompatibilities. Latex to PDF converters are also shockingly slow for this day and age, a simple document can take several seconds to compile compar…

There are a couple of issues here. First, Markdown and HTML simply punt on the vast majority of the issues that TeX solves. Just as the author rightly comments that TeX is not geared toward online publication, HTML is geared toward only that model. If you want to paginate HTML or Markdown, you do it yourself. Widows and orphans are (obviously) your problem to deal with. Compared to the work that TeX is doing, Markdown is, to a first order approximation, just catting the file. HTML can reflow a document in real-time because it's doing a really poor job of reflowing the document. Even when they work, they're just putting line breaks in whenever the width would otherwise be too wide. TeX is running a dynamic programming algorithm to minimize the "badness" of the line breaks across multiple lines and even paragraphs. And quite a lot of the time, the browser just throws its hands up and says, "fuck it, you can just scroll horizontally to read the rest of this line". You can't do that on paper. So of course it's faster. You might as well be complaining that Preview is faster than Photoshop.

HTML and Markdown don't do automatic hyphenation (across multiple languages). They don't do ligatures. They don't do proper text justification (neither does Microsoft Word or Libre Office for that matter). They don't do cross reference tracking (i.e., having automatically numbered sections, tables, figures, etc. with automatically updated references). They have no logic at all for automated float placement. Font handling is specified by a human instead of relying on algorithmic font selection and substitution when necessary. I could go on for pages of this.

I think the idea that web browser vendors are better at this sort of thing than TeX and LaTeX is so wrong I don't know where to start. The author complains that some of his 20 year old LaTeX articles rely on outdated files to render properly. While this is true, and very occasionally a problem, it's only very recently that you had even the vaguest hope that your HTML document would render the same way on two different computers owned by the same person today! Arguably, the biggest slice of the software industry is now devoted to making things render on browsers. And for Markdown, we quite recently saw that even the simplest text rendered in no fewer than 17 different ways depending on which software (and version) you processed it with. If my goal is to be able to reproduce the output of today 15 or 20 years from now, HTML would be the absolute worst choice I could think of, unless again, you stick with tags and the like, and the subset of LaTeX you can reliably assume will always work gives you much broader coverage of the space of typesetting issues than the subset of HTML that doesn't change monthly does. Not to mention, I can still more easily go get an old LaTeX implementation to rebuild a document that doesn't compile anymore (but in 15 years, I've never had to). It's quite a lot harder to get Netscape Navigator 3 up and running to attempt to faithfully render a document I wrote in 1997.

Also, web browsers have historically been just about the buggiest, most insecure, and transient pieces of software we've ever written as a field, and TeX is famously maybe the highest quality piece of software ever written. It's more or less fine that the web changes every 18 months. It's a problem for archivists, but the web isn't really intended for that. Academic publications are though, and the impedance mismatch is, in my opinion, brutal.

The interface (by which I mean the programming language) of TeX and LaTeX is indeed pretty dreadful, but this is a really minor issue compared to the rest of it. There are a lot of things I dislike about LaTeX, but I don't see how HTML or Markdown is an improvement. You'd need a completely new thing that supported everything that LaTeX supports, and while you could certainly do so with a nicer language, you couldn't do it with something as clean and simple as Markdown -- there are just too many things you need to be able to tell it you want it to do.

Re: The LaTeX cargo cult

#60

LaTeX is a good idea with a terrible implementation. The popularity of markdown (+variants) is a testament to the usefulness of plain text writing. However, LaTeX syntax is a clunky and the ecosystem is a scrapheap-challenge amalgamation of packages with assorted cross-incompatibilities. Latex to PDF converters are also shockingly slow for this day and age, a simple document can take several seconds to compile compar…

The typesetting quality of web browsers doesn't even compare to that of TeX, which uses a dynamic programming algorithm to minimize the "badness" caused by line breaks in various places. This is aside from TeX's ability to typeset math.
Post reply on HN