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In Spain, Politics via Reddit

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Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#51

Post by lukeschlather »

spindritf wrote: post #2

Hard to imagine a better place for leftist populism than Reddit. The fact that it's not popular in Spain is a feature here, allowed them to target the most engaged first. With the language barrier, probably also younger and better educated. It’s still early to predict what is in store for Podemos. I'll take a shot: it'll fizzle out, just like Occupy, just like dozens of parties across Europe who manage a decent showi…

I don't know where you're living, but Occupy has a pretty strong showing every May here in Seattle... they're also Kshama Sawant's base. (First socialist on the city council since 1877.)

A lot has to happen before Occupy fizzles out around here.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#52

Post by lukeschlather »

ep103 wrote: post #30
aptwebapps wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a different definition of 'left' than most Americans, so there might be some disconnect there. Here, it just means socialist progressive (or in the direction of the same), more or less.

Yes, but the meaning of left in America is so far off the definition for the entire rest of the world, it is hardly worth considering.

When you're speaking on a predominantly American message board, you should either avoid using terms that mean radically different things to you than what they mean to most Americans, or you should consider what they mean to most Americans very carefully and make sure that your meaning can't be misinterpreted.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#53

Post by seren »

blueskin_ wrote: post #39
mercurial wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll be hard-pressed to find anybody putting "hardline" and "Hollande" in the same sentence. The main, genuinely left-wing measure his government took was gay marriage (and, it should be said, was adopted in spite of large demonstrations from the catholic right) but the Justice minister has also attempted to reduce the ever-increasing overcrowding of French prisons, things like this. However, his reform of the fina…

Don't forget the tax hikes that effectively drove the rich out of France (to Switzerland mostly). Are those not left wing now?

If you are referring the infamous 75% tax, it was initially supposed to be a new tax bracket for the income tax (so any source of income above 1 million €), but it has been transformed in a tax paid by companies that are paying salaries and bonus above 1 million €, and it is capped to 5% of company revenue.

From my understanding, it means that for whatever reason you get an income above 1 million € this year for selling a company or renting apartment complex, or any other mean, the 75% tax does not apply to you.

The biggest contributors so far seem to be Football clubs, and likely some financial institutions. I don't have the exact number at hand but it is projected to only raise 200 millions. It concerned about 400 companies and 1000 people. It was only applied for 2013-2014 and seems to be abandoned for 2015.

For the most part, the uber rich are not rich because of their salary. Bill Gates or Steve Job, had they been French, would not have payed the 75% tax.

That does not make the idea less socialist, but I think it is a bit overblown internationally given how few people are impacted.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#55

Post by r0dia »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #46
r0dia wrote: post #26

I would like to rant a bit if you don't mind. There is no political Left in Europe. Podemos is not a leftist party, since no leftist party or democratic conservative party would ever get paid by the State and be part of it (like the Nazi party). It's a contradiction in terms and something that simply cannot be. Most of the people don't know the distinction between formal democracy and real(social) democracy and this…

> 1.- Representativeness: not possible in Spain, Italy, > Germany, Greece, Portugal among others, since they use the > proportional list system. What? I feel much more represented by a list of people that share my ideas and projects for the country, than by whomever the majority of people in my city chose among some candidates from the city. What's not democratic is first-past-the-post systems, where if in my city 30…

Honestly, I don't care how you feel. The Constitutional Court of Bonn (Germany) states that there is no representation in proportional list system. (I'll look for the quote).

> What's not democratic is first-past-the-post systems, where if in my city 30% of the people vote for candidate A, 25% for B, 25% for C and 20% for D, only 30% of the people get a representative and the rest of the votes go directly to the trash bin.

This doesn't happen in a two-round majority system.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#56

Post by r0dia »

herge wrote: post #31
r0dia wrote: post #26

I would like to rant a bit if you don't mind. There is no political Left in Europe. Podemos is not a leftist party, since no leftist party or democratic conservative party would ever get paid by the State and be part of it (like the Nazi party). It's a contradiction in terms and something that simply cannot be. Most of the people don't know the distinction between formal democracy and real(social) democracy and this…

> 4.- Different elections: for executive and legislative (like in France) The two most powerful countries with non-figurehead executives (France and the United States) are perpetually beset with bickering and internal fighting instead of "checks and balances". Is a system with government shutdowns like we saw last year in the US, or François Hollands troubles in France any better than a system where all the power is…

France doesn't have a full separation of powers since the president's executive needs the OK from the legislative power.

The Montesquieu proposal is the best mechanism that we have to avoid institutional corruption. If the power is held only by one group (legislators) corruption is inevitable.

If you only care about the output then Plato was right and the best system would be an aristocracy that cares and chooses the best for the country.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#57

Post by [deleted] »

ep103 wrote: post #30
aptwebapps wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a different definition of 'left' than most Americans, so there might be some disconnect there. Here, it just means socialist progressive (or in the direction of the same), more or less.

Yes, but the meaning of left in America is so far off the definition for the entire rest of the world, it is hardly worth considering.

[deleted]

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#58

Post by mercurial »

r0dia wrote: post #48
mercurial wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Representativeness: not possible in Spain, Italy, Germany, Greece, Portugal among others, since they use the proportional list system. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Are you talking about undue importance given to small parties in such systems? > Separation of powers: not happening in Spain. The most voted political party in the legislative elections forms government. That's not how separation of power work…

> Representativeness: not possible in Spain, Italy, Germany, Greece, Portugal among others, since they use the proportional list system. > I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Are you talking about undue importance given to small parties in such systems? No. The proportional list system prevents representativeness. The people whose name is on the list represent the one that put them on it. They do not represent the…

> No. The proportional list system prevents representativeness. The people whose name is on the list represent the one that put them on it. They do not represent the electors.

Then I'm not sure what you mean. That you don't like standard representational democracy, whereby voters grant power to politicians for a limited timeframe but cannot control directly what they do during this time?

> > Separation of powers: not happening in Spain. The most voted political party in the legislative elections forms government.

> > That's not how separation of power works...

> Exactly. I was explaining what happens in Spain.

That's the same thing elsewhere. What do you expect to see instead? > The electors should have a contract with their representative and if they are not loyal to that contract they can be ceased.

That's definitely an idea, though it seems tricky to put in place.

> It makes sense if you think about the different characteristics that you look for in a legislator in contrast to the values required to be a president. A legislator should be loyal to their representatives (a part) whereas what you are looking in a governor is intelligence to guide the Nation (all). It is nonsense to think that a good legislator could be a good PM (UK). Loyalty vs intelligence, that's why it should be different elections.

I expect that legislator look to their conscience first (if they can find it...) and to their party second. I also contest the underlying idea that an election campaign is a test of intelligence.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#59

Post by mercurial »

r0dia wrote: post #55
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1.- Representativeness: not possible in Spain, Italy, > Germany, Greece, Portugal among others, since they use the > proportional list system. What? I feel much more represented by a list of people that share my ideas and projects for the country, than by whomever the majority of people in my city chose among some candidates from the city. What's not democratic is first-past-the-post systems, where if in my city 30…

Honestly, I don't care how you feel. The Constitutional Court of Bonn (Germany) states that there is no representation in proportional list system. (I'll look for the quote). > What's not democratic is first-past-the-post systems, where if in my city 30% of the people vote for candidate A, 25% for B, 25% for C and 20% for D, only 30% of the people get a representative and the rest of the votes go directly to the tras…

If you mean a two-round first-past-the-post system, it works about the same as a one-round system. This is what got Jacques Chirac elected with 82% of the votes in France in 2002 in the second round. Whatever the number of rounds, it's a broken system designed to favour the two main parties.

Re: In Spain, Politics via Reddit

#60

Post by crdoconnor »

seren wrote: post #53
blueskin_ wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the tax hikes that effectively drove the rich out of France (to Switzerland mostly). Are those not left wing now?

If you are referring the infamous 75% tax, it was initially supposed to be a new tax bracket for the income tax (so any source of income above 1 million €), but it has been transformed in a tax paid by companies that are paying salaries and bonus above 1 million €, and it is capped to 5% of company revenue. From my understanding, it means that for whatever reason you get an income above 1 million € this year for sell…

It was whinged about incessantly in the popular press though (even on HN) as being anti-entrepreneurial, anti-business and something that would lead to an exodus of rich people from Paris (as if lower property prices were a bad thing).

I think the thought mattered more than the actual tax. You could sense that the ultra-wealthy all around the world hated it. Made them feel persecuted, perhaps, despite it being ultimately pretty toothless.

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