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Rich, Black, Flunking

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Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#51

Post by n8agrin »

dpatru wrote: post #12

Reminds me of a passage from Philip Greenspun's article, How to Become as Rich as Bill Gates, http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/ : When I arrived at MIT as a first-year graduate student in electrical engineering and computer science, I asked a professor for help with a research problem. He said "The reason that you've having trouble is that you don't know anything and you're not working very hard." A friend of mine was…

Perhaps this is a tangent, but the notion of ...creating a cozy home for unproductive people... resonated with something I learned from a kiteboard instructor, of all people:

When I was learning to kiteboard I was out one day for a couple hours, had a good session and decided I was ready to get out of the water. I wasn't exhausted, but I was getting tired.

My instructor came speeding up next to me and asked me what I was doing. I explained I was getting tired and wanted to head in. He tossed his really nice new kiteboard my way, told me to give him the old beat up kiteboard I was riding and to go back out. I was reluctant but he pushed me and I caved in. My session went from good to great, and I think my kiteboarding skills improved more in that extra hour than in many of the days prior.

Later that night I was telling my instructor how well I did on the newer board and how I had been ready to give up for the day. He told me "Sometimes you just have to push yourself that extra 5%, even when you think you can't." That statement has been a guiding principle throughout my life ever since.

Any time I feel like I'm in too much in my comfort zone, not challenging myself to learn new things, or feel I'm incapable of doing something, I remember my kiteboarder's adage and try to push myself just a little bit more. So far it seems to have worked well.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#52

Post by yardie »

Tichy wrote: post #16
yardie wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't have kids. Whether you do or don't like school is immaterial. The fact is, schools take up a majority of your kids' time until they graduate and get a life of their own. By default, you should be interested in what your kid is learning. No one is asking you to sit in class 8 hours a day, but at least get to know what it is they are learning. If my kid takes an interest in music, I'm there, wrestling?…

"By default, you should be interested in what your kid is learning." I hope they would learn interesting stuff, but if they don't, should I really try to make them believe it is interesting? I personally hated school for most of my life, and I have a hard time putting my kids through the same thing. Maybe it would help them more if I told them that I understand why they hate school so much. My goal would be to teach…

"My goal would be to teach them how to get through school with the minimum possible effort"

This is commendable. You don't have to agree with what they are teaching, but declaring school as evil sets a bad tone. Instead of learning from your mistakes, your kid(s) just inherit the animosity. Unless you enjoy homeschooling* then schools will always have aspects of it you won't like.

You don't practice the same learning for the 12 years. You reach a level and move onto the next challenge. Just like no one takes 12 years of handwriting or 12 years of algebra. A good school would recognize you've mastered the subject and send you on to the next one. I finished 3rd grade reading 5th grade books. In the 4th and 5th grade I was outside playing basketball while the rest of class had to complete their reading assignments.

I agree that the importance of being a kid seems to be lost on the current generation. Schools are expanding and playgrounds are being paved over. 24-hour news has turned child abductions into a national epidemic instead of what they really are, isolated incidents.

* I don't mind homeschooling, but I don't have the time nor expertise to commit to it.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#53

Post by thras »

jbm wrote: post #48
thras wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've seen precious little research? I assume you've actually looked? Read things like The Bell Curve, etc.?

I can't say with certainty now, but when I was a genetics student in a fairly decent University, I remember we laughed at "The Bell Curve". It wasn't considered classic scientific reading. There are a million places to start if you want to find a critique, but you can start with Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man".

There are a million critiques, many of which I've read. Some are better than others. By far the most ill-informed is The Mismeasure of Man. It's the worst of the bunch, written by an idiot. If you want a intelligent critique, I can point you to some.

Now, Murray had problems in The Bell Curve -- he didn't properly understand regression to the mean, for example. But did you students actually read it before laughing? He was pretty solid on most of the genetic topics he covered (a small part of the book).

Here's a good start to correcting your opinion about Gould: http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2009/01/a_week_with_gre.h...

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#54

Post by natrius »

Retric wrote: post #14
ErrantX wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the inherent problem I see in the modern "casual" approach to racism. It's "ok" now to be vaguely anti-white/anti-black in an "im not really racist, honest" way. With just the one attitude in the room your probably ok (just get a bit of awkwardness) but with both the divide is doubled and problems appear. I get frustrated with some of the big "anti-racism" campaigners; they strike me as making the smaller iss…

My first boss was a black guy who graduated from Yale. It took 7 years before I was making more money than he did. I tried to get him to move to a new company, so I could get a signing bonus, and he could get a 30k raise, but had little interest. My father grew up as a poor white guy and had the same attitude. "I make a lot of money why strive for more?" The people I work with have this attitude that 300k/year is exp…

A family income of $300k is upper class, by the way. No one likes to call themselves rich, but $300k is at least in the top 10%, which is decidedly not middle.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#55

Post by yardie »

thras wrote: post #26
radu_floricica wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen precious little research on biological explanations. I'm betting all my money on culture. I'm in eastern Europe, and I feel parts of black culture familiar. And to be honest, I don't like it. We have here too a subculture in which people display gold chains and like songs about money and enemies, and pretty much to everybody's surprise it's socially determined, not ethnically.

You've seen precious little research? I assume you've actually looked? Read things like The Bell Curve, etc.?

You're whole scientific reasoning is based on....The Bell Curve?!

I'd have a laugh too. And some of whatever you're drinking.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#56

Post by ErrantX »

davidw wrote: post #46
ilyak wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF: I do not certainly see any value in torturing oneself. If you're working too hard and bragging about it, good chance that you aren't performing terribly well and, certainly, rather inefficiently

Especially if you're doing things like operating on people:-/ No restoring from backups, or rolling back to the latest working version if you fuck up.

That's the exact reason they push interns beyond breaking point. My friend regularly made silly, dangerous mistakes when tired - every time he did a serious dressing down ensued.

Because he was an intern a qualified doctor always double checked him so none of the mistakes were enacted. But he learned his limits and how far it was safe to go.

People put their lives in the hands of doctors; they are under pressure, overworked and often have a tiny margin for error. Knowing your limits is one of the most important aspects.

This is the reason usually only the brightest and hardest workers at school make the grade to become a doctor. Not because of their smarts - but because they can concentrate and focus on a task and achieve highly on it in a consistent way, even under pressure.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#57

Post by jdminhbg »

martincmartin wrote: post #21
abhinav wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I intuitively like the idea of the "supposed" but atleast in the west there seems to be a way of counteracting these pressures. It seems to me that "white" children can choose from a variety of roles: nerdy, athletic, artistic etc and although there are penalties associated with each role there are rewards as well and each role is deemed valid by society. However, the article seems to suggest a homogeneous "black" id…

When I moved from Canada to the U.S., I was surprised how segregated the country still is. It's not legally enforced, of course. It's just that there are black parts of town and white parts of town. So although I've lived in both Pittsburgh and Boston for a total of 16 years now, including grad school where I was very social, I haven't had much of a chance to have African American friends because I've met almost no A…

I would note that I think Pittsburgh and Boston are both more segregated than the average American city -- Boston famously so.

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#58

Post by thras »

jbm wrote: post #45
thras wrote: post #20

Biological explanations, while non-PC, do a rather good job of explaining the available evidence.

Please, by all means, elucidate your "non-PC" ideas, with relevant, broad-based (not cherry-picked) evidence.

Human beings are still evolving. Much or most of what's been changing in recent evolutionary history have to do with brain development. When you examine things like the HapMap, you find that the gene distribution of these changes is different in different places. Yes, I mean different in that non-PC way.

Are a couple of recent papers from Science good enough?

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/309/5741/1717

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/309/5741/1720

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#59

Post by tezza »

cturner wrote: post #41
tezza wrote: post #19

I would like comment on the economic and social aspects[1] of this article. .. * I) Underacheivement as a group Defense Mechanism :: Some social-groups actively encourage what I call "Perennial-Underacheivement". This is in my opinion based on a group defense mechanism[2]. This defense mechanism is to ensure the weak and sick and those unable to care for themselves are not left behind. They value support for the less…

Your comments about low achievement for group defense/satisfaction are also seen in Elton Mayo's Hawthorne Studies ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elton_Mayo ) in a contact that's not related to race. As a Jew you're about as far away from "Underacheivement as a group Defense Mechanism" as it's possible to get. The history of the world is filled with stories of people who have lost their way, their identity and become…

Hi CTurner,

I don't know why you were downmodded... what you said makes perfect sense.

I am firmly in the camp of Achieve and Prosper. Being Jewish helps :) , but the Immigrant bit was the mainstay of my comment. jews have been thrown out of lots of countries (including Egypt/Israel/Iran in Bible) so it may be in our blood to be Immigrants and thus to trust most in the care you can provide to your own family via success. I know lots of 5 generation jews who underperform versus some dynamic Israelis. Different topic, different discussion.

--

I only commented on it because I work extensively with Charities. I now do volunteer work with the IT4Communities[1] and have worked with lots of others in the past too.

I have perceived an active repulsion to Money and Success amongst many Charity Staff. These staff are often recruited from the community which normally does the rest of the caring.

This is where I have developed my idea that the Fear of Money is actually misguided Concern for Community. They love their community as it struggles to help the needy and are petrified of being left as the only broke fuckers who care as the University grads end up in finance.

----------

[1] http://www.it4communities.org.uk/it4c/home/index.jsp

Re: Rich, Black, Flunking

#60

Post by maw »

TheElder wrote: post #30
cousin_it wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested in the academic gap between Ashkenazim and non-Jewish whites. Even if you're bad at distinguishing the two groups by naked eye, it still exists.

Of course it exists, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. This can be seen in the numbers at any top university, Noble prize winners, advancement in science, engineering, and and so on. That part isn't so interesting, what is interesting is how this elevated IQ came about. There are a few ideas of why this happened. The slower, unable to adapt, were killed off over thousands of years. When finding a mate, it was recomme…

All of these compounded over hundreds and possibly thousands of years could have possibly affected the IQ of the Jewish population. There is one problem with this idea, in that most of that requires an elevated IQ to begin with.

I don't understand why this requires an elevated IQ to start with. If we suppose that IQ is partly genetic, and therefore subject to random mutations, and if we further suppose that the smarter offspring have better opportunities to mate, then wouldn't that be enough to end up with a smarter group of people over time?

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