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Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

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Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#51

This is going to draw a lot of negative points here, but its important to note that the issue of net neutrality is an issue because of the lack of competition in the states. If BT (largest ISP in the UK) tried to pull any of the stuff that's been going on, they would have been fined, and users would have left in droves. All the major ISPs here in the UK have multiple CDN node on the edge of their network, simply beca…

Probably because it's easier to prevent the companies from abusing their position than it is to do something about the fact that the monopolies exist in the first place. The former is a matter of defining a rule that says "If you do this, we will fine you or worse", where "this" is defined as various anti-competitive, anti-consumer practices. The latter is a morass of legal wrangling (think ma bell getting broken up)…

that is true for sure

i like to believe that competition can solve this particular problem, but the honest truth is that real competition in broadband internet access is a distant distant idea, regardless of what policies we put in place (which would also be long term policies -- like dig once). enabling real competition would also require even more "heavy handed" regulation, like requiring open access to infrastructure & public right-of-ways, which are at the heart of the physical portion of broadband networks, and which would be a 10x bigger fight than the net neutrality fight.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#52
For folks who really want to dive into the technical arguments here, I highly recommend this paper by the new FCC CTO (and UCI CS prof) Scott Jordan: http://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/168/88

This addresses ALL of the concerns raised on this thread about incentives, competition, various arguments for/against net neutrality, and it finally proposes what I consider to be a very fair solution. I just read it yesterday and am planning to write up a summary blog post, unless someone else beats me to it.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#53
post #7

We haven't had net "neutrality" in the history of the internet and call me crazy, but it seems to have done just fine. "Net Neutrality is just left wing populism run amok" http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/eff-lies-about-netneutrali...

The post you linked to confuses "fast lanes" with CDNs. They are not the same thing.

CDNs are about making more copies of content and locating them closer to users, in order to make the average route to users shorter. There's nothing in that that is inconsistent with net neutrality: traffic from a CDN server to a given user doesn't get to the user any faster than any other traffic over the same route.

"Fast lanes" are about privileging some traffic over other traffic over the same route. That is what is inconsistent with net neutrality.

Also, the post makes an invalid assumption about how upgrades to networks get paid for:

> Forcing Comcast to upgrade their network to support Netflix means forcing the majority of low-bandwidth customers to subsidize the high-bandwidth customers.

No, it doesn't. Comcast can simply charge users more for more bandwidth usage. Again, there's nothing in that that is inconsistent with net neutrality, as long as Comcast (or any other ISP) charges just for bandwidth. Then Comcast uses the extra money it gets paid for more bandwidth, to upgrade its network so it can carry more bandwidth. People who don't use the extra bandwidth (like me) pay a lower rate for our service, so the upgrade is really being paid for by precisely the right people, the ones who need the higher bandwidth.

But what Comcast wants to do is charge more for Netflix bandwidth than for other kinds of bandwidth. (It's actually charging Netflix instead of Netflix's users, but that doesn't change the essential point.) That is what is inconsistent with net neutrality.

The post does make one good point:

> government regulators...won't allow another company [besides Comcast] to come in and lay a fiber optic network unless that company agrees to lay fiber everywhere -- even the poor areas of town

This is a good point, but it's completely separate from the Comcast-Netflix question. I agree that governments should not expect for-profit corporations to provide a service that isn't profitable. If governments want to make sure that everybody has Internet access, then governments should provide it themselves.

And local governments have indeed tried to do exactly that--to build municipal fiber networks that cover entire communities. The problem is that every time a local government tries to do that, Comcast and the other major ISPs have kittens and say that they will be driven out of business and file lawsuits.

This tells me that the corporations actually prefer the current regulatory regime, because it allows them to buy protection from competition. If we had a sane court system, that wouldn't matter too much since the lawsuits would just be thrown out; but that doesn't happen.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#54
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Points worth considering: ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed , not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed". And it's worth noting that this is a case where the ISP is in complete control of the speed you get Netflix. There are many cases where the ISP doesn't have a h…

> ISP's have tended to charge for a specific speed, not amount of data. By throttling the Netflix connection they're basically saying "We don't really care that you paid us to be able to access anything on the internet at this speed". I think you're reading an "anything on the internet" into your service agreement that isn't there, but even then you have at best a case for false advertising. If ISP's were up front ab…

I have 50/5 cable service and I often can't get even 3Mbps to Netflix for a full-HD stream.

I don't know that regulations regarding advertised vs actual speeds are going to do anything to solve the problem, but I do believe that there is a problem when I can't use even 6% of the theoretical bandwidth that I've theoretically paid for.

I understand not getting 100% downloads all day every day from every website on the internet. Not all have fast enough servers or fast enough primary links or whatever. I understand not getting even say 50% downloads all day every day because I know how TCP backoff works; it's exponential and a lot of downloads are short.

I might even understand not being able to use all 25% of my connection 24/7 again because there are things like peak usage where everyone gets home from work and starts doing stuff online at home and the local loops that the cable company has provisioned might be too big to provide everyone with 100% throughput. I'm not necessarily complaining about that as there are realities to life that aren't necessarily pretty but still real.

But what I can't understand is that my ISP which advertises a specific download capability would throttle it at the SOURCE (or the input to their network) when there is enough bandwidth at the last mile to support the connection.

For the vast majority of internet history (admittedly only 25 years or so) the limiting factor was almost always the LAST MILE. We're now finding out that it's not the last mile anymore but still something within the ISP's control and they're not doing much to alleviate the problem.

This to many folks feels like a betrayal because according to a certain "the last mile is always the slowest" mindset, it is! People aren't wrong to think that because that's how it's always been. ISPs are creating a paradigm shift that they're not telling anyone about and are in fact doing a good job to obfuscate.

You might disagree that it is a betrayal but it feels like that to many folks. You can try to tell them they're wrong but I suspect that because of the many years of assumptions people have had about the way the world works you won't have a lot of luck.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#55
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While ISP monopolies are a big part of the problem, even if there were competition, that would not ensure net neutrality. After all, if all of ISP companies decided that they could make metric tons of money by gating off the internet, and there were no laws against it, you could potentially end up with a situation where every ISP is charging ransom. Look at mobile telcos and text message charges. For a long time ther…

It wouldn't "ensure" it in the formal sense of the word, but in a system with actual competition, actors generally can't get away with "charging ransom".

This assertion is often put forth by naive Libertarian types, but it's simply not true. Cartels routinely emerge in markets with high barriers to entry. This happens even if there are laws against direct coordination and those laws are obeyed.

The market players aren't dumb, and they realize that if the barrier to entry is high enough, they can maximize profits by simply not competing. Price wars are terrible things for companies in such situations.

That said, there's no point in discussing history (such as turbine pricing) with you, because you've already demonstrated that you're a completely typical closed-minded religious zealot with an aversion to reality.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#56
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers are already paying for their internet connection that cost billions for ISPs to roll out. Now ISPs want to charge both parties, and that is wrong. Do you remember life before Netflix? Incredible you would say they don't bring much value.

Two parties benefit when you order a movie on Netflix: you, and Netflix. The company that builds the infrastructure should be able to charge both. It's just how public transit infrastructure is often funded by a combination of user fees and increment taxes on the businesses served by the new road or train line. Indeed, it's a fairly basic principle of the economics of building infrastructure. A free market underinves…

Netflix pays a company to provide Internet infrastructure to them. (Level 3, I think) If your ISP isn't Level 3, they should not have the economic right to charge Netflix, because your ISP doesn't service them. Customers pay their ISP to deliver things customers want, no more, no less.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#57
post #53
post #7

We haven't had net "neutrality" in the history of the internet and call me crazy, but it seems to have done just fine. "Net Neutrality is just left wing populism run amok" http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/07/eff-lies-about-netneutrali...

The post you linked to confuses "fast lanes" with CDNs. They are not the same thing. CDNs are about making more copies of content and locating them closer to users, in order to make the average route to users shorter. There's nothing in that that is inconsistent with net neutrality: traffic from a CDN server to a given user doesn't get to the user any faster than any other traffic over the same route. "Fast lanes" ar…

> If governments want to make sure that everybody has Internet access, then governments should provide it themselves.

... but when the government starts rolling out Internet service, major ISPs lobby for laws to prevent it. The major ISPs can't say "Woe is us, we have to roll out service to unprofitable areas," then turn around and say, "Government, don't you dare service those people for us!"

It comes across like those years where the RIAA would argue to government that their business was falling apart and making music copying a criminal offense was the only way that the music industry wouldn't fall apart in a year. Then they would turn to investors and talk about how swimmingly their business was going, and how there was nothing to worry about.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#58
post #2

Its odd to talk about net neutrality as something that might "perish" as if it ever existed for more than the couple of years before the FCC's order was struck down.

> Its odd to talk about net neutrality as something that might "perish" as if it ever existed for more than the couple of years before the FCC's order was struck down. The FCC Order was motivated by a desire to preserve what was seen by many as the status quo ante that was, at the time the order was adopted, perceived to be under threat as big providers began discriminating against certain remote endpoints and applic…

If the status quo ante was in place for decades, why do we need new laws to preserve it now?

I don't see the apocalyptic future neutrality advocates envision. I think there is a battle over Netflix because its such an outlier in terms of bandwidth usage, and because their stance on peering was at odds with the accepted understanding of free peering (the "status quo ante"). I don't think the ISP battle with Netflix can be generalized.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#59
post #49
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The history of the Internet as the most successful radical deregulation since the abolition of serfdom, or some other history of the Internet?

What deregulation, exactly?

The 1990s transition from the US Internet infrastructure being a government run research project to the multiple privately owned networks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Foundation_Net...

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#60
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two parties benefit when you order a movie on Netflix: you, and Netflix. The company that builds the infrastructure should be able to charge both. It's just how public transit infrastructure is often funded by a combination of user fees and increment taxes on the businesses served by the new road or train line. Indeed, it's a fairly basic principle of the economics of building infrastructure. A free market underinves…

Netflix pays a company to provide Internet infrastructure to them. (Level 3, I think) If your ISP isn't Level 3, they should not have the economic right to charge Netflix, because your ISP doesn't service them. Customers pay their ISP to deliver things customers want, no more, no less.

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