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Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

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Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#51

Post by pionar »

amykhar wrote: post #40

The demographics of Vermont makes me curious. Many people say that the war on drugs is racially motivated in that more blacks and hispanics are prosecuted than whites. Vermont is 95% Caucasian. I wonder if this fact influenced the new policy in any way.

I would say that it's just Vermont being independent as usual. Vermont has always gone against the grain, in good ways and bad (there's a secessionist movement there now[0]). I've long advocated for treating drug abuse as a disease and making it a health problem.

I'm against complete legalization of most drugs, though. I say make personal use legal and continue prosecuting dealers and pushers.

And for anyone who disagrees, that's fine. This is just my personal opinion.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#52

Post by lifeisstillgood »

coldtea wrote: post #41
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes ... But absolutely everything you say could apply to alcohol during say Prohibition. Look people taking the moonshine to be tested, people enjoying booze sensibly ... We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives. Yes, stop this crazy war on drugs, but don't…

> We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives You don't just need to have a "sane policy". You need to have a sane culture. For one, a culture that doesn't treat alcohol as something necessary for having fun (e.g binge drinking on weekends, etc), but as someth…

Yes policy is not the right word, but we have many cultures around drinking alcohol, and sayin that some of them are the wrong culture and this the cause of trouble is either just labelling those of that culture as "troublemakers" which just leads downwards, or a more enlightened question is why are those cultures toxic - which tends to lead back to mental illness, depravation, lack of opportunity and lack of ... A culture that values more ...

And we are back again. Humans are a problem.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#54

Post by jasonwocky »

tim333 wrote: post #49

>“This is an experiment,” Shumlin says. “And we’re not going to really know the results for a while.” Good stuff. I really wish those in power would more often try a scientific/engineering approach to see what works rather than politicians shouting about war on whatever.

Vermont is just about the most pragmatic state in the union that I know of, and it took them this long to finally try this approach out. Give it time.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#55

Post by unknownian »

scoofy wrote: post #22
dasmithii wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*he's the only self-proclaimed socialist. Surely there are more who possess similar ideologies, but aren't outwardly socialist.

Difficult to say, but i doubt it. When it comes to whipping votes (getting the party members to vote along party lines) only he and Angus King have the ability to claim no affiliation to the Democrat ticket, but Maine is a much more centrist state than Vermont. The house does not currently have any third party members. Since voting is what matters (not privately held views), i'd say that he is indeed the only sociali…

Scott DesJarlais fits into the category of politician preaching what he doesn't believe. Also probably the most disliked man in Washington.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#56

Post by duncanawoods »

pionar wrote: post #50
codeshaman wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have to disagree with you on alcohol. Alcohol is a very addictive and destructive substance and can cause personality changes which lead to aggression and domination (ego enhancer) and is very harmful to health if abused. A large chunk of problems in our society comes from alcohol abuse. Some of the substances which are generically called 'illegal drugs', however, are much safer and self-limiting and many hav…

> drugs which I'm familiar with and have studied extensively through literature and some self experimentation. Sorry, a sample size of one does not make a drug "safe". The fact is, there's no such thing as a safe drug, as everyone's body reacts differently to each one. > although none are as destructive as alcohol. Really? Are you really saying that heroin, which is one of the most addictive drugs in the world, is no…

>> Are you really saying that heroin, which is one of the >> most addictive drugs in the world, is not as destructive >> as alcohol?

In terms of the chemicals themselves, this is generally considered to be true.

The risks of heroin are in unsanitary IV injections, OD from impure/variable product and the lifestyle of a street addict. Aside from addiction, similar pharmaceutical preparations of opiates (codeine, morphine etc.) is widespread.

However with alcohol, we have the short-term effect of injury and 100s of longer term conditions including cirrhosis and alcoholic dementia. It may be less addictive but the irreversible physical damage of the substance itself is much higher. AFAIK there is no medical benefit to high levels of blood-alcohol and only harm.

In terms of societal harms, we get extensive petty theft of heroin addicts but UK A&E and jail cells are dominated by the violence and injury fuelled by alcohol use.

>> People don't die from a nicotine overdose.

The number of smoking related deaths is truly shocking so I wouldn't trivialise it. Recovered heroin addicts often report breaking smoking addiction to be even harder.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#57

Post by JonLim »

codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

I think they had a drug testing booth in Barcelona when I was there last summer for Sónar, and there was a massive line up of people.

Not sure what Spain's outlook on drug use is, but it was rather refreshing to see that level of education and emphasis on safety compared to what I've seen in festivals in Toronto and NYC.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#58

Post by [deleted] »

pionar wrote: post #50
codeshaman wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have to disagree with you on alcohol. Alcohol is a very addictive and destructive substance and can cause personality changes which lead to aggression and domination (ego enhancer) and is very harmful to health if abused. A large chunk of problems in our society comes from alcohol abuse. Some of the substances which are generically called 'illegal drugs', however, are much safer and self-limiting and many hav…

> drugs which I'm familiar with and have studied extensively through literature and some self experimentation. Sorry, a sample size of one does not make a drug "safe". The fact is, there's no such thing as a safe drug, as everyone's body reacts differently to each one. > although none are as destructive as alcohol. Really? Are you really saying that heroin, which is one of the most addictive drugs in the world, is no…

[deleted]

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#59

Post by elsjaako »

pionar wrote: post #50
codeshaman wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have to disagree with you on alcohol. Alcohol is a very addictive and destructive substance and can cause personality changes which lead to aggression and domination (ego enhancer) and is very harmful to health if abused. A large chunk of problems in our society comes from alcohol abuse. Some of the substances which are generically called 'illegal drugs', however, are much safer and self-limiting and many hav…

> drugs which I'm familiar with and have studied extensively through literature and some self experimentation. Sorry, a sample size of one does not make a drug "safe". The fact is, there's no such thing as a safe drug, as everyone's body reacts differently to each one. > although none are as destructive as alcohol. Really? Are you really saying that heroin, which is one of the most addictive drugs in the world, is no…

Nicotine overdose would be more common if people injected it. Smoking heroin isn't actually that dangerous (though admittedly, more dangerous short term than smoking tobacco). Why don't people smoke it then? Because the illegality makes it really expensive, and injecting is more effective.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#60

Post by ap22213 »

awjr wrote: post #26

"War on drugs" is a terrible world affliction. Prohibition neither works nor is conducive to a better society. Governments should just tax and sell the drugs to the general public. Alcohol is considered to be the most harmful drug but is legal because it can be taxed, controlled, and makes money. ( http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus... ) Governments should also support people that want drugs…

I don't see it quite so cynically. Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned.

Most people that I've met (who may not be considered alcoholics) certainly have some level of alcohol dependency. And, I'm being loose here with the word 'dependency', but in the last year, I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drinking.

However, that does bring up the issue of money and alcohol. Restaurants seem to push the stuff pretty heavily, at least in the US. There should at least be some restrictions on the amount of profit that bars / restaurants can make off of it.

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