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Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

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Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#51

Post by bdcravens »

steven777400 wrote: post #6

How much of the "ageism" is actual discrimination and how much is "we have a small budget and need 80 hour weeks" that older workers won't accept? I received an offer from a very interesting startup in southern California (down between LA and San Diego, not SF). The offer was $30K/year (with increases as revenue increased), with minimum 80 hours a week expected. As cool as the projects were... There's no way I at my…

That's not ageism, that's idiocy. (barring some great equity offer) No business prepared to pay that will function for long, as it suggests inadequate capitalization.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#52

Post by squozzer »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #36

You should hire young ... but not to get the best technical ability. You should hire young because we older developers, while being technically superior to our younger colleagues, don't want to put up with your bullshit. I've been on enough projects that can best be described as rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic that I don't put up with management dropping the ball. The challenge for more experienced developers…

Now that I'm 49, here's my 2 yen.

After a certain age, I didn't care as much about the "challenge" of a new position so much as the money and power I would receive. Shocking, I know.

I also acquired a certain ruthlessness born maybe out of my observations of corporate life, or from a sense that my life's candle is burning ever shorter.

Sure, I would still make the mouth noises and refrain from keeping it real. And I would occasionally succeed.

The problem with revealing a taste for money and power is that it puts you in competition with the company suits - who consider money and power as much their birthright as their perfectly coiffed hair and their legacy admission to Hahvahd. So if given the choice, the suits will always choose less-experienced people who don't value money and power over better-qualified people who do.

Put another way, suits have a sense of inadequacy that only Freud could appreciate.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#53

Post by adambratt »

collyw wrote: post #29
adambratt wrote: post #16

I've worked in a few different industries that are traditionally a lot more corporate than most startups. Most notably, finance. What I've noticed is that while these companies tend to have older tech guys than you'll find at a lot of startups, it's still a lot younger age-wise than the rest of the business. I think part of it is that the number of young people who were in tech 20 years ago compared to now was much s…

I am just about to turn 40. Been developing software for 11 and a half years professionally. I realise that I am a lot better developer than I was a while ago. Actually I have seen a lot more problems, and I have a good idea what will work two months down the line, and what will be a constant fire fighting exercise due to a half though through design. How do I get this across to employers? All they seem interested is…

Come work with us! We're growing fast and love people with lots of experience.

careers@benzinga.com

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#54

Post by lotsofmangos »

fleitz wrote: post #45
lotsofmangos wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are getting old. Day by day, all-nighter by all-nighter. The more hours you put in, the faster you will burn. But that's ok, your company will not mind. There's a sucker born every minute.

Their company is a family... one of those cannibalistic ones that eats their ancestors.

Not necessarily.

It is amusing that after observing that older folk employed at the same company seem to be taking it easier compared to the average, ashwinaj uses this observation to partially justify age discrimination on the basis that the older people look like they are putting in less effort, when these are the same set of people who have been successful at staying with the company.

Perhaps the company actually values more relaxed people and doesn't encourage the perpetually rushed to stick around.

edit - Something that did occur to me after reading this -

there are a lot of slackers and you guessed it, they're usually (emphasis on "usually", stop trolling) older, paper pushers, "Let's have a meeting to talk about changing a line of code" people

- was to think about how much money could have been saved globally by someone like that being in the loop on the openSSL source code. It has to be in the billions by now.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#55

Post by _random_ »

fleitz wrote: post #11

The key with ageism in tech is to move into mgmt. You're not supposed to be a code monkey at 30. And especially not having 10 years of experience in a technology 10 years old. Also as you said, young people put up with shit no one over 30 would ever put up with. $30k for 80 hour weeks? No thanks, I'd rather flip burgers because it pays more than $7.50/hr, McDonalds also has free soda.

> "...in a technology 10 years old..."

Like JavaScript, Python and Ruby :)?

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#56

Post by brightsize »

I have no experience with big-name tech megacorps, my career has been with startups and small companies mostly. As a non-young person who's looking for something new at a small startup, my feeling is that age discrimination is clearly a thing, but it's not (just) a function of expected compensation, skillset, or willingness to work insane hours. My feeling is that, while you're expected to fit the profile in those areas, most of the discrimination is based on what startups would call "cultural fit". Specifically, being "like them" in having an enthusiasm for a dorm culture atmosphere. Yes, Work is Play! It's All About Having Fun(!) here at our hipster office. We have fussball tables. A fridge packed with beer! Group outings to clubs (to hear bands that are popular among the just-graduated set, don't expect a night at the symphony)! Food from the food trucks. Nerf fights! Why oh why would you ever go home??

I frequently see this sort of work environment publicly glorified on the "come work with us!" pages of startup websites, often accompanied by a self-congratulatory statement such as "of course, we wouldn't be a real {SF|NYC|Berlin|...} start-up if we didn't have all this and an office in the coolest part of the city" and so forth. The implied message being that if you're not likewise enthusiastic about a "work is socializing and play with some coding mixed in followed by socializing and play" atmosphere, if you don't share the non-work-related values and interests of "the team" (i.e. things 23 year olds care about), then clearly you're not startup material. You won't be fun to have around, won't be fun to hang out with, you should probably go work for an insurance company, somewhere boring where you'll fit right in.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#57

Post by LyndsySimon »

Dewie wrote: post #30
fleitz wrote: post #11

The key with ageism in tech is to move into mgmt. You're not supposed to be a code monkey at 30. And especially not having 10 years of experience in a technology 10 years old. Also as you said, young people put up with shit no one over 30 would ever put up with. $30k for 80 hour weeks? No thanks, I'd rather flip burgers because it pays more than $7.50/hr, McDonalds also has free soda.

You're right that you shouldn't be a code monkey at 30. You should have graduated to programmer by then.

I'm 30, and largely self-taught.

+1. I graduated "code monkey" at 25 or so, "programmer" at around 28, and feel I'm nearing the top of "software developer" now.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#58

Post by cunac »

adambratt wrote: post #53
collyw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just about to turn 40. Been developing software for 11 and a half years professionally. I realise that I am a lot better developer than I was a while ago. Actually I have seen a lot more problems, and I have a good idea what will work two months down the line, and what will be a constant fire fighting exercise due to a half though through design. How do I get this across to employers? All they seem interested is…

Come work with us! We're growing fast and love people with lots of experience. careers@benzinga.com

Judging from your team photo it doesn't look like that :-) But it is a thought what counts

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#59

Post by dfxm12 »

brightsize wrote: post #56

I have no experience with big-name tech megacorps, my career has been with startups and small companies mostly. As a non-young person who's looking for something new at a small startup, my feeling is that age discrimination is clearly a thing, but it's not (just) a function of expected compensation, skillset, or willingness to work insane hours. My feeling is that, while you're expected to fit the profile in those ar…

When I go on a job interview, I'm interviewing the company as much as they are interviewing me. I've turned down a handful of job offers because their "workplace culture" wasn't what I was looking for. Some were way too dry, some were too much like what you describe above.

Of course, I'm not near an SF/NYC/Berlin type of "scene" though. Is the problem that every good job opening in these hotbeds is with a start up that has this type of culture?

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#60

Post by ashwinaj »

lotsofmangos wrote: post #54
fleitz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their company is a family... one of those cannibalistic ones that eats their ancestors.

Not necessarily. It is amusing that after observing that older folk employed at the same company seem to be taking it easier compared to the average, ashwinaj uses this observation to partially justify age discrimination on the basis that the older people look like they are putting in less effort, when these are the same set of people who have been successful at staying with the company. Perhaps the company actually…

Well, you can nitpick my comment, pick outliers and twist my words (I never said I justify age discrimination - I merely said it is a fact of life) but readers here are smarter than that :)
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