Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later • Hacker News Board

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#51

Post by Dewie » Tue, Jul 29, 2014, 11:53 PM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #24

s_q_b wrote: post #6

Very cool idea. Although the recent oil and natural gas booms are fast transforming "The Empty Quarter" into "Extractopia" where oil, gas, logging, and mineral extraction, which are already the main industries, are going to become an increasingly important driver of overall North American economic growth.

Already the case with Alberta, which is a major driving force in the Canadian economy, on track to surpass Quebec as the second largest provincial economy. Feels like a bit of a slight to lump it into an "Empty Quarter."

And Northwest Territories is the richest province per capita, at least according to Wikipedia. (Though with ~40,000 people it won't make for a big overall economy.)

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#52

Post by tdaltonc » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 3:31 AM UTC

"American Nations: a History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures" is a more historically rigorous look at this idea. I highly recommend the book.

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#53

Post by jqm » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 3:40 AM UTC

I find this just dumb.

Of course you can make arbitrary divisions but that doesn't mean they are relevant. Not that the US can't be divided, but these lines aren't it.

The central-southern part of Florida has little in common with Kentucky nowadays. Phoenix, Las Vegas, Denver and Salt Lake are large metropolitan areas with cultures very different from rural Alaska.

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#54

Post by Danieru » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 5:05 AM UTC

electromagnetic wrote: post #44

Tiktaalik wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already the case with Alberta, which is a major driving force in the Canadian economy, on track to surpass Quebec as the second largest provincial economy. Feels like a bit of a slight to lump it into an "Empty Quarter."

The effect is spanning too. As Alberta has sucked up the trades for the associated housing booms, pay has jumped in Saskatchewan, and now is jumping in Manitoba. Ontario hasn't really seen it yet, but they've started advertising for skilled and unskilled trades here too. As someone trying to start a business it's actually a great time. 5 years ago work was getting poached by fly-by-nighters who did shoddy work for ch…

Interesting that the other provinces are only now seeing the effects. I would have thought 2006 was the peak skills drain. My first year economics professor at been working in the provincial economic advisor office at the time. He said about $60 Billion was being put into Oil Sands at the time.

This may not seem like much but it works out to 30k per man, woman, and child in Alberta. Most of whom are not welders...

It meant every job was paying above minimum wage. McDonalds was paying $1 above min wage. I've heard stories of 14 year olds running gas stations all by themselves, despite the illegality of it.

2006-2007 was pretty insane in Calgary. Fort Mac would have been Hell.

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#55

Post by thix0tr0pic » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 11:18 AM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #36

BrandonMarc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you see Peter Warden's post? He's the creator of that map. http://petewarden.typepad.com/searchbrowser/2010/02/how-to-s...

Yup. And clicking the image there goes to fanpageanalytics.com, which seems to be a parked domain? There's only one page and it's completely irrelevant to anything. His blog says he was almost sued by Facebook, but for making a site to crawl Facebook's graph. Obviously he's not being sued by Facebook for creating the image because the image is everywhere, but only as a ridiculously tiny version.

large enough? http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-takes/infographic-the-...

Unfortunately it appears as if the original image was just stretched to a larger size, but if that's the case the resolution you're looking for just may not be available.

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#56

Post by crag » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 11:38 AM UTC

It's true about Florida. Drive up the east coast, once you drive though Palm Beach county (heading north) and into Martin county, you'd swear you were in Georgia. It's a sudden change. Even environmental. Since zone 10 (topical) ends somewhere near on the border of Palm Beach and in Martin counties.

Edit: Correction. Zone 10/9 are expanding. Which makes sense considering global warming. See http://www.garden.bsewall.com/topics/hardiness/maps.htm

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#57

Post by lilsunnybee » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 2:57 PM UTC

jqm wrote: post #53

I find this just dumb. Of course you can make arbitrary divisions but that doesn't mean they are relevant. Not that the US can't be divided, but these lines aren't it. The central-southern part of Florida has little in common with Kentucky nowadays. Phoenix, Las Vegas, Denver and Salt Lake are large metropolitan areas with cultures very different from rural Alaska.

Lived in the Denver metro area and it definitely couldn't be considered to have that much in common with most of the rest of "The Empty Quarter", besides a cultural preference for rugged individualism and limited government interference in personal affairs.

Denver has an impressive light rail system, and Denver / Boulder are responsible for Colorado being one of two states first in legalizing Marijuana and the first in allowing public sales (though Washington state shouldn't be far behind once regulations are finalized). Polyamory doesn't have much public acceptance but is fairly common in the area. Programs and policies concerning homelessness are very progressive compared to most anywhere else in the US.

Denver/Boulder metro area, and to a lesser extent other communities along the Colorado Front Range, have much more in common culturally with SLC than Grand Junction, CO (the state's western capital) or any of the rest of the supposed "Empty Quarter". Peter Warden's Mormonia (if including Denver), being completely surrounded by the Nomadic West, is a more accurate division, though the name is a little inaccurate and not especially representative (at least half of SLC isn't mormon, and neither is most of the Colorado Front Range, though Colorado Springs is very evangelical).

If Joel Garreau still thinks Denver/Boulder and SLC are "Empty Quarter", and at least not aberrations, he doesn't understand the culture very well. It's almost as bad as placing most of NYC within "The Foundry".

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#58

Post by lilsunnybee » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 3:02 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #46

icegreentea wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population and population density in those areas are incredibly low. At least on the Canada side, the only two major cities in that area are Edmonton and Calgary, with a combined population of less than 2 million.

That's not true. Edmonton and Calgary have each been over a million for a while now. Alberta has also been the fastest growing province for probably a decade now.

Also Denver/Boulder and SLC on the US side are not exactly low population density.

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#59

Post by lilsunnybee » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 3:10 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #16

bostonpete wrote: post #14

I'd carve off an additional nation stretching from Boston to D.C. Putting NYC in a declining industrial nation with Detroit as its capital seems puzzling even for 30 years ago...

I think Brooklyn was considered Foundry but Manhattan is its own city-state. Same with DC. "Mex-America" is a weird one (and why is the capital in the U.S.?) too. If Minnesota and Michigan are different nations, then Mexico (which is much more tribally, ethnically, and socioeconomically heterogeneous) cannot reasonably be cast as one bloc. Oaxaca, Mexico DF, the Yucatan, and Juarez are all very different places (just…

And Brooklyn, with all the hipsters and many other people who couldn't afford to live in Manhattan, is also Foundry, same as upper Manhattan? Denver/Boulder and SLC hardly have much in common with the rest of the Empty Quarter either. I have another reply in this thread explaining more about that. And where does Las Vegas fit in? Nevada as a state is very liberal in some ways, much more so than other states in the Empty Quarter.

Re: Nine Nations of North America 30 years Later

#60

Post by lilsunnybee » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 3:22 PM UTC

roberthahn wrote: post #2

Has anyone read this book? What were your thoughts on it?

I read it a few years back. It provides pretty detailed and interesting explanations for naming certain cultural regions and drawing divisions the way they are. But even in '81, and especially now, there are a lot more aberrations than Garreau sees fit to point out. Myself, and others, have highlighted some of these unacknowledged aberrations elsewhere in the thread. Some aberrations might be large enough to even designate new "Nations". But for someone living outside the US, or anyone else unfamiliar with the general cultural differences and boundaries within the US, the book would still be worth reading and learning from even today, even if it paints in broad strokes.