Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Subtle -isms at Hacker School

hackerschool.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 136 posts

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#51

Post by ahh »

nicholasjbs wrote: post #22
HarrietJones wrote: post #4

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

Shaming rituals, however light in touch they are, rarely improve things. This is in no way a "shaming ritual." It isn't intended to be one, and it hasn't become one in practice. I'm one of the founders of Hacker School. I can't stand politics. If these rules actually created the environment you're imagining, we'd get rid of them immediately. Thankfully, we have several years of experience now and we've found that hav…

> If these rules actually created the environment you're imagining

Of course they don't, for the people you think are high status. Male losers like me get hosed, but who cares what kulaks think?

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#52

Post by [deleted] »

api wrote: post #5

I ask this as a general question to all of tech culture, not to just this particular setting: What about subtile elitism? It's one of the biggest subtile -isms I've run into. If you didn't go to a top ten university, you're sort of in a lower echelon in the tech world. In practice this subtilely selects for people from higher socioeconomic backgrounds and/or people who have an "academic-oriented" learning style as op…

[deleted]

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#53

Post by wmj »

beering wrote: post #29
Zikes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ban on debates is particularly jarring. I get the idea, a debate could easily turn into a heated argument, but if someone told me I am being sexist or homophobic when I am not then I'm certainly not going to apologize for it. If they want to maintain a civil environment that's able to call out subtle -isms, then they should simply accept "no, it wasn't" just as freely as "oops, sorry".

Perhaps not the most subtle example: I may tell someone to "man up and crank through the work". I didn't intend on being sexist, but someone points it out. And then I proceed to get into an irrelevant shouting match about how, in German, "mensch" is gender neutral. If you didn't intend on being sexist or whatever, then maybe there's a better way of phrasing what you said. Or, you can find faculty later, in private, a…

> Anyways, I would just say "sorry" on the spot

Would you?

Let's test it.

Your whole comment is a subtle -ism because I say so.

Apologize for it and retract it immediately.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#54

Post by rev_bird »

invadedby wrote: post #14

This is a throwaway account. I feel we are being invaded. The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. It developed through text were it hardly matter who was on the other side of the connection, only skills and thoughts mattered. Those were the good old days, when we were free. Now we are being invaded. We, like every other culture in the world, are ask to not use certain la…

The "no debate" thing seems really odd and control-freakish on their part, I'll give you that. But if you look at people trying to make tech a more inclusive community and call it an "invasion," you're reflecting the exact view that made movements like this pop up.

If "the good old days" were really that good, why have women been almost intentionally excluded from IT until relatively recently? Do you mean "good" for people in general, or "good" for you?

When you say "we are being invaded," who is "we"? White men? People who are already "in"? More importantly, who is doing the invading? If women say "hey, these are small, tacitly accepted things in tech culture that make people uncomfortable," do you seriously think that statement is persecuting you? They're not trying to control your thoughts, they're trying to get you to be less of an asshole.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#55

Post by thumbtackthief »

Zikes wrote: post #6
HarrietJones wrote: post #4

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

The ban on debates is particularly jarring. I get the idea, a debate could easily turn into a heated argument, but if someone told me I am being sexist or homophobic when I am not then I'm certainly not going to apologize for it. If they want to maintain a civil environment that's able to call out subtle -isms, then they should simply accept "no, it wasn't" just as freely as "oops, sorry".

Is there a chance you said something that others would consider homophobic or sexist when that's not what you intended? Is there a chance others could have a different interpretation of your casual remarks?

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#56

Post by mcguire »

antics wrote: post #12
jraines wrote: post #3

What's the difference between a "well, actually" and correcting someone's misunderstanding -- or rather, when is it not welcome? My understanding is that it's when someone parachutes into a conversation uninvited to correct someone, but if I was in a learning setting like Hacker School, I feel like I would welcome that from fellow students or instructors.

I was in the Summer 2013 batch. There is no hard-and-fast rule for figuring out what is and is not a well-actually, but the biggest factors (at least for me) are (1) did it derail the conversation, (2) did my correcting someone make it less acceptable to not know something, and (3) was my motivation to do something like show off? I've been guilty of all 3. Anecdotally, I found that the effect of this lightweight rule…

"(1) did it derail the conversation, (2) did my correcting someone make it less acceptable to not know something, and (3) was my motivation to do something like show off?"

Hallelujah! Someone who understands! :-) [1]

I've done it as well, and I hate it when I realize I am.

I suspect the worse part of HS' policies is exactly that "adjusting to the real world, where [it was very much ok to not know something] is subtly untrue, is a trial." In the typical business environment, appearing not to know something is a very unsubtle weakness.

[1] I'm completely unrelated to Hacker School.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#57

Post by rev_bird »

invadedby wrote: post #47
resu_nimda wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. This reads like a 4chan teenager's manifesto. Alright, a bunch of nerds in their basements who are just so edgy and can say whatever they want. Badass! Well, you might be pleased to know that you're totally free to carry on the misanthropy club in plenty of areas of the internet. But here on Hacker News, and apparently especially a…

This reads like a 4chan teenager's manifesto. a bunch of nerds in their basements How can you talk that way and the next moment talk about fostering inclusion?

The guy calling "let's strive for inclusive language" an invasion by thought police probably doesn't get to drive the hypocrisy bus.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#58

Post by thumbtackthief »

streptomycin wrote: post #38

Although our employees are diverse on some axes, we're 90% white. There are also class barriers to attending Hacker School - while Hacker School is free, living in New York for three months is not. I can't help but laugh sometimes. Good thing all the rich white women feel comfortable! But seriously, how is it possible to have so few Asians? Usually the "problem" is that there are far too many. Maybe we need affirmati…

The employees--of which there are 7 or 8, I believe--are 90% white. Hardly a decent sample size. The attendees are much more diverse.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#59

Post by Zikes »

thumbtackthief wrote: post #55
Zikes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ban on debates is particularly jarring. I get the idea, a debate could easily turn into a heated argument, but if someone told me I am being sexist or homophobic when I am not then I'm certainly not going to apologize for it. If they want to maintain a civil environment that's able to call out subtle -isms, then they should simply accept "no, it wasn't" just as freely as "oops, sorry".

Is there a chance you said something that others would consider homophobic or sexist when that's not what you intended? Is there a chance others could have a different interpretation of your casual remarks?

Is there a chance? Certainly.

Should we let everyone's internalized emotional damage be projected onto society at large? Certainly not.

If we're going to let everyone interpret our words however they wish, then the entire concept of language becomes meaningless.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#60

Post by mcguire »

diminoten wrote: post #17
jraines wrote: post #3

What's the difference between a "well, actually" and correcting someone's misunderstanding -- or rather, when is it not welcome? My understanding is that it's when someone parachutes into a conversation uninvited to correct someone, but if I was in a learning setting like Hacker School, I feel like I would welcome that from fellow students or instructors.

It just seems like in order to get the most out of Hacker School one has to act with positive intent but otherwise entirely ignore the rules. It looks immensely easy to fall into a trap of caring too much about the rules and not caring enough about the code, and I can imagine a large group of people trying to play along rather than try to become better "hackers". "Ohh, I'm sorry, you did actually just save us from th…

I suspect that to get the most out of Hacker School one has to act with positive intent and otherwise entirely ignore the rules, but be prepared to admit that one's behavior is not already perfect.
Post reply on HN