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First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

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Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#51

Post by enraged_camel »

[deleted] wrote: post #6

[deleted]

Even though Americans make a big deal about freedom and liberty, the only thing most of them ultimately want is to be able to maintain their lifestyle.

Think about it: what do people do when they go to work on Mondays? Are they thinking and worrying about their eroding freedoms and devising of ways they can stop zealots like the NSA? No. They are planning for the weekend, when they can hang out with their friends and family, go on a short trip, play video games, and so on. They are thinking about saving some money so they can buy that gadget/car/house they wanted. They are worrying about the problems their kid has been having at school. They are stressing about what happens if they lose their job. And so on.

This is the root of the problem: people are so far removed from political issues, so distracted with their own problems and priorities, that they don't even know the names of their own politicians, much less have the cognitive capacity to recognize and critically analyze what is going on their country beyond what the media feeds them. And when they finally get home after working for eight, ten, twelve or more hours everyday, their brains are so fried they can't even think straight.

And you want these people to put everything aside and overthrow the NSA?

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#52

Post by GabrielF00 »

flyinglizard wrote: post #28
[deleted] wrote: post #6

[deleted]

It's because of the American separatist mentality. Your average gun toting, freedom loving American sees the world through a very polarizing lens. Not long ago, I read the book American Sniper by Chris Kyle [1], about a Navy SEAL who is the most successful American sniper of all times. The good guy/bad guy dichotomy is very apparent throughout the book. He claims his life's priorities are "God, Country, Family", in t…

That's an incredibly one-dimensional reading of the American worldview. The culture that you are describing exists, but it's hardly representative of the country as a whole. It is not very well represented in, say, the White House or the editorial board of the New York Times. The so-called American Establishment, which has an outsized influence, is well-educated and not particularly religious (and often not Christian). A relatively low percentage have served in the military.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#53

Post by ericingram »

[deleted] wrote: post #6

[deleted]

I imagine it has to get much worse before it can get any better. Many Americans view the government as the answer to every problem, and thus continue voting to grant it more power. Nothing can turn the tide except mainstream rejection of the that idea.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#54

Post by elliotec »

Lrigikithumer wrote: post #14
drcode wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I don't think there's a way to stop this through the democratic process: If a whistle blower publishes details showing the government is running "Project X", and we "kick the bastards out" that authorized it via the ballot process, and the government shuts down "Project X" as a result, all the NSA needs to do is rename it "Project Y". I'm seriously at a loss as to what to do about this problem.

Take to the streets then, peaceful protest, make noise, make it aware to every man woman and child that this is an important issue, that your freedom is something you value. Peaceful assembly with a forceful message is one of the only ways this can be changed, Americans need to stand up and be heard or it's only ever going to get worse.

Any time this is attempted, it is met with enormous governmental show of force. No matter how peaceful the dissent, the US government is not tolerant of it.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#56

Post by smacktoward »

Taek wrote: post #40
chx wrote: post #16

There's a bigger problem today: I did speak out. Perhaps you did too. You tweeted, retweeted, commented, blogged etc. Noone cared. What now?

"Like this post if you pray for cancer victims" I would like to suggest that voting provides a way out. If the NSA had a smaller budget, things might be better. If every branch of our military had a smaller budget, things might be better. Congressmen do listen to us, and if collectively we spoke against the military, there might be success. Honestly I have no idea how to fight politically. I think we all feel powerle…

I would tend to agree, but voting is just the first rung of what you might think of as a ladder of commitment:

Voting Organizing others Donating money to fund full-time campaigners Volunteering for leadership positions/running for office

Each step on the ladder requires more commitment, and will therefore be taken by fewer people. But to succeed, a movement needs all of them.

If you vote, and nothing changes, and you're asking what comes next, maybe you're ready to move to the next rung. Start a meetup in your community. Give to the EFF or the ACLU. Run for office yourself, or identify a good person who should be running and help them do so.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#57

Post by chx »

Taek wrote: post #40
chx wrote: post #16

There's a bigger problem today: I did speak out. Perhaps you did too. You tweeted, retweeted, commented, blogged etc. Noone cared. What now?

"Like this post if you pray for cancer victims" I would like to suggest that voting provides a way out. If the NSA had a smaller budget, things might be better. If every branch of our military had a smaller budget, things might be better. Congressmen do listen to us, and if collectively we spoke against the military, there might be success. Honestly I have no idea how to fight politically. I think we all feel powerle…

> Congressmen do listen to us

Where did you get a nonsensical idea like that? Maybe in a few years if https://mayday.us/ succeeds. But right now.... nope.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#58

Post by karpodiem »

GabrielF00 wrote: post #52
flyinglizard wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because of the American separatist mentality. Your average gun toting, freedom loving American sees the world through a very polarizing lens. Not long ago, I read the book American Sniper by Chris Kyle [1], about a Navy SEAL who is the most successful American sniper of all times. The good guy/bad guy dichotomy is very apparent throughout the book. He claims his life's priorities are "God, Country, Family", in t…

That's an incredibly one-dimensional reading of the American worldview. The culture that you are describing exists, but it's hardly representative of the country as a whole. It is not very well represented in, say, the White House or the editorial board of the New York Times. The so-called American Establishment, which has an outsized influence, is well-educated and not particularly religious (and often not Christian…

It goes deeper than that. The White House plays off the ignorance and emotion of this group to do their bidding. This is what these people are dying for - giving us cheap fuel and preventing China from getting their hands on it.

Now ask yourself - do you agree with the decisions of these non-religious and well educated people? Yes, it started with Bush and Obama largely pulled them out. But Obama has failed in bringing order and instituting a functional society. Whether that country is even culturally capable of that after the trauma they've been through is debatable. But that's where we're at.

Why did nearly 4500 soldiers die in Iraq? To provide cheap fuel and block China? Yes. But I'll leave the mathematics of the total estimated amount of oil in the ground and preventing China from getting it to someone else.

As ISIS has demonstrated though, we're not even competent at maintaining an imperialist vassal state.

Seems like a lot of money for what's in the ground.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#59

Post by flyinglizard »

GabrielF00 wrote: post #52
flyinglizard wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because of the American separatist mentality. Your average gun toting, freedom loving American sees the world through a very polarizing lens. Not long ago, I read the book American Sniper by Chris Kyle [1], about a Navy SEAL who is the most successful American sniper of all times. The good guy/bad guy dichotomy is very apparent throughout the book. He claims his life's priorities are "God, Country, Family", in t…

That's an incredibly one-dimensional reading of the American worldview. The culture that you are describing exists, but it's hardly representative of the country as a whole. It is not very well represented in, say, the White House or the editorial board of the New York Times. The so-called American Establishment, which has an outsized influence, is well-educated and not particularly religious (and often not Christian…

First, I apologize if that came across as one dimensional, but it's a very complicated issue which is difficult to really cover in a single HN comment. I also don't lean one way or the other - I think the American hegemony has served humanity very well, and an intelligence advantage is critical to that. But, on the other hand, just as there are countries "on the brink of nuclear capability", which posses the technology and material and can develop a bomb in few months time (like Japan for example) - so is USA approaching an "on the brink" police state, with huge surveillance capabilities, militarized local police and a whole lot of armed federal agencies and national guard units. These capabilities, in the wrong hands or at a time of crisis, can lead America down a very dangerous slope.

So I definitely don't take this issue as a simplistic one.

However, more to your point:

1. The "American Establishment" is part of the problem, not of the solution. It's a classic case showing failures of checks and balances and of a shady power grab in the executive branch. The support of NSA activities is not a partisan affair.

2. In the Snowden case, a significant part of the media chose to label his actions as treason. Some did so directly, and others through adopting the official White House line. It was even worse with Manning.

3. The constitution, free market and gun rights lend America the notion of the "land of the free". That resonates across a significant part of the American public, and that's certainly a common perception (not necessarily a hawkish one). Freedom is a concept that's rooted deeply in the American mind. It's easy for an ordinary citizen to assume that a country placing so much emphasis on freedom would act in good faith to uphold it.

If you survey Americans about "what is the most free country of the world", they would say USA. They wouldn't believe you if you told them the USA has more monitoring measures to track its own citizens in place than any other country in the world, North Korea, China and Russia included.

So while my post was a bit one dimensional, so I say is the perception among the American public, and this good faith the public has in the country has given each administration a blank check to do as they please.

Re: First they came for the Whistleblowers, and I did not speak out

#60

Post by mscman »

elliotec wrote: post #54
Lrigikithumer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take to the streets then, peaceful protest, make noise, make it aware to every man woman and child that this is an important issue, that your freedom is something you value. Peaceful assembly with a forceful message is one of the only ways this can be changed, Americans need to stand up and be heard or it's only ever going to get worse.

Any time this is attempted, it is met with enormous governmental show of force. No matter how peaceful the dissent, the US government is not tolerant of it.

It is? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I haven't seen legally organized protests (yes, you do have to file the appropriate paperwork) recently which have actually been shut down by an enormous governmental show of force. Do you have any examples?
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