Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#51

Post by icebraining » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:40 PM UTC

jscheel wrote: post #49

Scientists tend to exclude God, and creationists tend to exclude science. It would benefit all of us for each side to recognize that they can live in harmony. Science can provide insight into how God's creation works, but it can never exclude God. If religious interpretation of scripture flies in the face of provable, observable science, then perhaps our interpretation of that scripture is wrong. I'm tired of this ri…

creationists tend to exclude science

No, that's exactly the problem - many creationists try to pass off their theological scriptures as science. Which is why rules like this have to be imposed. Thankfully, they are an exception among religious people as a whole, at least here in Europe.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#52

Post by Silhouette » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:43 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #43

codeulike wrote: post #4

I very much doubt there were any UK schools teaching it anyway, hence this news is not really news this side of the pond. (Context for those in the US)

Its to cut off some of the fringe "free" (but tax payer funded) schools that Gove was so fond of until recently.

Indeed. There has been a lot of controversy in recent weeks about how some schools operate and the influence of certain religions in what is taught:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27944190

Although that situation is about something else, it did renew attention on other long-standing concerns about how our schools today aren't all required to follow the same rules as much as they used to be and how this might negatively affect their children's education.

Incidentally, the article title is misleading here. In the UK, "public school" means something counterintuitive and quite different to "school receiving public funds":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_school_%28United_Kingdo...

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#53

Post by groovy2shoes » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:45 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #22

l0gicpath wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no reason for your comment, specially when the guidelines are clear about these types of contributions. From http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html 4th paragraph from the bottom > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is > inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, > flag it by going to its page and clicking on > the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this…

I disagree with that section of the guidelines.

I disagree with drug laws, but that doesn't mean I can possess drugs without penalty.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#54

Post by meepmorp » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:49 PM UTC

Lambdanaut wrote: post #35

philcoders wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The rest of the article dealt with interpreting biblical statements to fit the current undeniable understanding of the universe.", (How do i correctly put a quote here in the replies?) In Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth… This is written before any scientist can confirm it. Thats not interpretation, its a clearly stated fact, "circle". And he points out if other religion gets it wrong.

The Earth is a sphere, not a circle. That's not a nitpick either. They thought the Earth was a flat disk back then. Regardless. Even if you were dumbly granted that the Earth was a flat disk, how would that have any barring on the rest of the Bible's arguments? Plato was right about a lot of things, but does that mean he was also right about the elemental nature of the universe? (Everything being created from the bas…

> The Earth is a sphere, not a circle.

The earth is an oblate spheroid, not a sphere.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#55

Post by w1ntermute » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:49 PM UTC

jscheel wrote: post #49

Scientists tend to exclude God, and creationists tend to exclude science. It would benefit all of us for each side to recognize that they can live in harmony. Science can provide insight into how God's creation works, but it can never exclude God. If religious interpretation of scripture flies in the face of provable, observable science, then perhaps our interpretation of that scripture is wrong. I'm tired of this ri…

> Science can provide insight into how God's creation works, but it can never exclude God.

Of course it can exclude "God," seeing as "God" is nothing more than a fictional construct created by humans because they couldn't fully understand the world around them. Anyone who cannot recognize and accept this is either deluding themselves or lying.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#56

Post by grkvlt » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:52 PM UTC

philcoders wrote: post #25

daemonk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a bioinformatician with a background in genetics. The argument against evolution in the article, mainly the piltdown man hoax and new sequencing data on neanderthal is extremely weak. I don't think a single example of scientific fraud is enough to discredit the entire community. I actually think the fact that the fraud was found out as a hoax shows that evidence is constantly being scrutinized and re-examined; w…

"The rest of the article dealt with interpreting biblical statements to fit the current undeniable understanding of the universe.", (How do i correctly put a quote here in the replies?) In Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth… This is written before any scientist can confirm it. Thats not interpretation, its a clearly stated fact, "circle". And he points out if other religion gets it wrong.

> before any scientist can confirm it

Well, Isaiah was kicking about the Middle East in or around 650 BC. And somewhere in Greece at about this time, Pythagoras was one of a line of philosophers and astronomers who knew the earth was round. Eratosthenes comes along a couple of hundred years later, and he actually measured the circumference of the earth; pretty accurately too, considering the highly technical equipment (a well) he used!

In general, the ancients knew the earth was not flat, and had a pretty good idea of its shape and size a lot earlier than most people realise.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#57

Post by grkvlt » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:54 PM UTC

meepmorp wrote: post #54

Lambdanaut wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Earth is a sphere, not a circle. That's not a nitpick either. They thought the Earth was a flat disk back then. Regardless. Even if you were dumbly granted that the Earth was a flat disk, how would that have any barring on the rest of the Bible's arguments? Plato was right about a lot of things, but does that mean he was also right about the elemental nature of the universe? (Everything being created from the bas…

> The Earth is a sphere, not a circle. The earth is an oblate spheroid, not a sphere.

> The earth is an oblate spheroid

To a first order approximation, such as would be suitable for a discussion on an Internet forum, the earth is basically a sphere...

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#58

Post by wfjackson » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:55 PM UTC

jscheel wrote: post #49

Scientists tend to exclude God, and creationists tend to exclude science. It would benefit all of us for each side to recognize that they can live in harmony. Science can provide insight into how God's creation works, but it can never exclude God. If religious interpretation of scripture flies in the face of provable, observable science, then perhaps our interpretation of that scripture is wrong. I'm tired of this ri…

It is ironic that the very same creationists tend to exclude Gods from other religions. Why do they firmly exclude the Mayan God, or the Hindu Gods? Why are their scriptures true but not the others? If there are contradictions in the scriptures of the various religions in the world, then perhaps the creationists "interpretation of that scripture is wrong".

The following quote comes to mind:

“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” —Stephen F Roberts

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#59

Post by Silhouette » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:55 PM UTC

makomk wrote: post #5

return0 wrote: post #2

I wonder if that was even an issue in the UK (or really everywhere except some parts of the US).

Yes, it was an issue in the UK. Our previous Government intentionally gave control of some state-funded schools to Christian fundamentalists with limited oversight and their schools have been teaching kids that the world is 6000 years old in science classes, complete with bogus scientific evidence for it. The current Government has been expanding this program.

That is a rather one-sided presentation of how this happened.

Neither Academies in general (the invention of the previous administration) nor Free Schools (one development of that idea by the current administration) are necessarily anything to do with religion. Moreover, we have had successful religious schools since long before that without the problems we're talking about here.

Whatever your politics and whatever think of either the Academies concept or allowing schools to be run by organisations with religious motivations, singling out a few cases where things have obviously gone wrong with insufficient oversight as if that is what either government intended to happen with the changes in recent years is hardly constructive.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#60

Post by demallien » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:58 PM UTC

jscheel wrote: post #49

Scientists tend to exclude God, and creationists tend to exclude science. It would benefit all of us for each side to recognize that they can live in harmony. Science can provide insight into how God's creation works, but it can never exclude God. If religious interpretation of scripture flies in the face of provable, observable science, then perhaps our interpretation of that scripture is wrong. I'm tired of this ri…

False equivalence. Science is simply making hypotheses about how the world works, and testing thises hypotheses with experiments. Everyone does thus, not just scientists. When he plant on my window sill is looking a bit ill, I might hypothesise that it's not getting enough water. I then test the hypothesis by watering the plant lord. If the plant still looks sickly I discard the water hypothesis, and may try for the sunlight hypothesis. The only difference when it's scientists, is that as professionals, they know what has already been tried elsewhere, so they don't repeat the same erroneous experiment needlessly.

Creationists actively reject evidence. I see no good coming from science bending to compromise with active ignorance.