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How America became uncompetitive and unequal

m.washingtonpost.com

51–60 of 71 posts

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#51
post #6
post #2

This opinion piece articulates something I've felt for a long time... consolidation is the biggest problem in America right now, scratch that, in the World. One thing that I can't comprehend is how right-wing free-market ideologues can get behind all the consolidation. Cant they see that consolidation is just like communism? Only a competitive market with many players can ensure progress continues.

Except that it is nothing like communism. Communism is defined by a complete lack of freedom to change the status quo. In turn, the lack of freedom to change the status quo means that development and progress is dramatically slowed, slowing down improvements in quality of life - as people themselves would prefer. Consolidation only persists where it is either an effective way to deliver value (Walmart) or regulatory…

"Communism is defined by a complete lack of freedom to change the status quo."

Communism is as diverse as capitalism, and this is neither the text-book definition, nor the real-world definition.

Is the definition of capitalism a complete lack of freedom to change the status quo because that was the case under Pinochet?

The text-book definition is the common ownership of the means of production. Is China still communist? The definition still applies somewhat in that they still have a lot of state owned businesses, and the banks which borrows capital to private business are state-owned. It can be argued. Does China have a complete lack of freedom to change the status quo? Only from a naive western perspective. There is only one party, but China's way is, if you want to change the state you join the party or work for the government (membership is not necessary to hold a government position). In other words, they consider it democracy through participation. A single person certainly has the ability to change the status quo, basically in the same way as in the west. Who really thinks voting actually matters much any more?

I don't condone China's way. I think the lack of acceptance for political dissent is disgusting. But that's besides the point. Point is, we can't fool ourselves into thinking China is like a dictatorship. They have other processes, but still achieves a decent meritocracy.

I'm beginning to think that democracy is a failure at the federal/union level. Look at the US and the EU. How functional is the democracy at that level these days? Maybe having so many people vote for a single/a few position makes democracy ineffective? I think these observations is why China is not jumping on the democracy bandwagon at the top level (they have implemented local elections).

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#52
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value for who? PLEASE! Get real! Wal-Mart delivers value for shareholders because they attract customers because they're cheaper and more efficient. But I suppose some people rather vilify its customers, under the delusion that tens of millions of America's poorest could magically lift themselves out of poverty by spending more money on manufacturing and transportation costs and on people working at cash registers. B…

> Value for who? Well they sure as hell aren't passing it on to their employees; meanwhile, their stock is doing quite well... > Wal-Mart delivers value for shareholders because they attract customers because they're cheaper and more efficient. > (And the grocery market in general is anything but low-competition.) Okay, so you've double turned yourself. Walmart faces lots of competition from local chains, which preve…

> Okay, so you've double turned yourself... Competition is good.

What? This isn't a double-turn at all. I'm not defending uncompetitive environments and monopolistic exploitation, I'm asserting Wal-Mart as example uncompetitive environment is, in the general case, nuts.

> Of course, this ignores that many of those poor are the ones in the factories, warehouses, trucks and behind the cash registers.

Not ignoring that fact, NOTWITHSTANDING THAT FACT. No one is better off if one person working minimum wage pay extra money to have another person working minimum wage drive a truck further (and burn more fuel for that matter). Recognize a simple truism: no group gets better off by engaging in waste. (You could make a case that someone-else making substantially more than minimum wage paying extra for that would increase overall well being by paying more for these services, because of diminishing marginal utility of that richer person's wealth, but making groceries cost more is a freakishly regressive sort of way to attempt to redistribute wealth... and wealthy people aren't shopping at Wal-Mart anyway, they're all at Target or Whole Foods...)

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#53

I have a different take on this article than most. I'm a proponent of Classical economics, and I reject all modern schools of economics--neoclassical, Austrian, Keynesian, etc. Classical thinkers like Adam Smith expounded how rational self-interest and competition together lead to economic prosperity. There's a balancing act going on between self-interest and competition--competition is the economic faculty that rest…

Excellent points! I like your thinking.

Although I agree to classical economics as the ideal, I'd argue that there are some moral arguments to limited government ownership and even monopoly in certain areas. That is, to guarantee a certain level of service, to handle natural monopolies, and to ensure that profits from large natural resources are distributed to the people rather than the few who has the capital, the luck and the political influence to acquire the mines/oil fields/etc.

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ironic how in the failed communist centralized economies, the economic policy was dictated by "elected" nomenklatura and it was BAD It wasn't judged as bad because of nomenklatura, or rigged elections. Few people care about these. It was bad because you couldn't get basic goods. There were shortages of sugar and toiler paper. Not war-time shortages, decades after the war. Which is why the current system will con…

"It was bad because you couldn't get basic goods". True. But the current system is (even more?) problematic because you can't get basic JOBS. And not only that but a fundamental part of the current system is the accelerating race of getting rid of jobs. And not only that but now, unlike ever before, the system uses the best tools against jobs: software & automation.

Personally I specialize in warehouses because with the coming levels of automation, increase of robotic productivity and loss of jobs, there will be so many products and so few customers that only bigger warehouses will be the solution :)

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#55
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Value for who? Well they sure as hell aren't passing it on to their employees; meanwhile, their stock is doing quite well... > Wal-Mart delivers value for shareholders because they attract customers because they're cheaper and more efficient. > (And the grocery market in general is anything but low-competition.) Okay, so you've double turned yourself. Walmart faces lots of competition from local chains, which preve…

> Okay, so you've double turned yourself... Competition is good. What? This isn't a double-turn at all. I'm not defending uncompetitive environments and monopolistic exploitation, I'm asserting Wal-Mart as example uncompetitive environment is, in the general case, nuts. > Of course, this ignores that many of those poor are the ones in the factories, warehouses, trucks and behind the cash registers. Not ignoring that…

> I'm not defending uncompetitive environments and monopolistic exploitation

Okay. Well that's what the article is attacking. So I guess I don't understand your point w.r.t. the thesis of the original article. Do you agree with the article but disagree that Wal-Mart is an example? Or what? Could you clarify?

> I'm asserting Wal-Mart as example uncompetitive environment is, in the general case, nuts.

To repeat myself, there's more than one way for companies to behave anti-competitively.

Wal-mart cannot afford to screw consumers, so they find other ways to leverage their status as a mega-corp -- squeezing local government via tifs (this corn field/park/10 year old walmart is "blighted", so give us 15 year tax break to build a new one), paying poorly compared to other players in the market, abusing or undercutting supply chain partners, etc..

> but making groceries cost more is a freakishly regressive sort of way to attempt to redistribute wealth

Well, we could one-up Wal-Mart and make all the groceries completely free by enslaving all those involved in food production. So this is clearly an over-simplification.

It's also a false choice. Wal-Mart could instead decrease its profits and play nicer with everyone (like many of its local chain competitors do, arguably because they don't have the huge legal/PR/marketing team and cash reserves which can buy F-U leverage against local governments and labor groups -- this coercive power that comes with being so big is at the heart of the article's thesis).

Also, the price difference vs. wage difference between Walmart and its competitors also puts the lie to this claim -- even an extra 1.00+ an hour way more than offsets an extra .10 cents on the dollar for groceries.

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#56
I am pleased to see that all of the comments up to now deal with the "uncompetitive" aspect of the article and none with the "unequal" aspect. Indeed, it seems to me that "inequality" (the word appears 9 times in the article) was thrown in after the fact to decorate a piece about the adverse effects of monopoly, because post-Piketti it's stylish to talk about inequality. These aren't the same subject; the discussion of inequality is focused on person fortunes, not industrial domination. The former doesn't require the latter.

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#57

I am pleased to see that all of the comments up to now deal with the "uncompetitive" aspect of the article and none with the "unequal" aspect. Indeed, it seems to me that "inequality" (the word appears 9 times in the article) was thrown in after the fact to decorate a piece about the adverse effects of monopoly, because post-Piketti it's stylish to talk about inequality. These aren't the same subject; the discussion…

No more than dying requires getting shot in the face. But nonetheless getting shot in the face adds considerably to the likelihood of dying.

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keynesianism lauds government monopoly power; while neoclassicism and Austrianism foster private monopoly power. Both are evil. At least in the case of government, you may feel that it is evil, but it is necessary [0]. So the more pragmatic and productive approach would be to think about how this monopoly power could be used to further prosperity and equity of the people. Today, the Left favors reforms to give govern…

I was speaking specifically of monopoly power, i.e., the power to raise or lower prices in the market. And no, neither government nor private firms should have this power. Monopoly power is an example of market failure. In a competitive market, all participants are price takers , i.e., passive agents incapable of changing the market price. In perfect competition, in every transaction, at least one party is better off…

I appreciate your engagement in this discussion. I think the notion of a competitive market as you define it [0] is inherently flawed. To quote:

> all participants are price takers, i.e., passive agents incapable of changing the market price

That makes no sense. If all participants cannot influence the price, then where does the price come from?

Logically speaking, once you abstract away from all sorts of fluff, everything that happens in a market is ultimately the result of the action of one or more of its participants. That is, if participants were unable to change the market price, then why would the market price ever change? Why would there be a price in the first place? The fact is that participants are necessarily able to change the market price, whether you want that or not. The only question is how this power is distributed and what the consequences are.

Having competitive markets in the sense of low barriers to entry etc. is clearly a good thing. But in the sense you've defined them, they are either useless or self-contradictory.

Interestingly, for every market, somebody has the (or at least some) power to set prices. Despite of what you write, most transactions are mutually beneficial anyway. Why is that?

I believe this is actually because the vast majority of markets aren't efficient in the efficient market hypothesis sense, and transactions aren't happening at the margin. For obvious transaction overhead and opportunity cost reasons, most transactions are only ever realized if they increase the total welfare not just by some epsilon, but by a significant percentage.

The really interesting question is how this large benefit is distributed between the transacting parties, and I would wager that the power to set prices does actually have a big influence there. That is, whoever actually gets to set the sticker price (for example) is bound to capture a larger fraction of the benefits than the other party, even if the transaction is overall still beneficial to both.

For this reason, I think the problem isn't even so much that transactions leave people worse off. That only happens comparatively rarely. The much more significant problem is when unequal power relations are exploited to give somebody a benefit that is deemed to be unjustified. [1]

The prototypical example would be the millionaire in the desert who is near death by thirst. If she signs over her entire wealth in exchange for a bottle of water and a ride out of the desert, then clearly, this is a transaction that is beneficial to both parties. Yet only the most psychopathic internet-libertarians would ever think that such a transaction was okay in any sense. The problem was not a lack of mutual benefit, but an exploitation of unequal power relations.

[0] And I suppose others define it in the same way, perhaps even a large group of economists.

[1] By the way, this is the root of the classical criticism of capitalism: that the surplus value of labor is siphoned off by capitalists, leaving workers with only a small amount. Even though employment contracts are typically mutually beneficial in the narrow, technical sense, there is the fact that the employer often exploits the reality of unequal power relationships.

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keynesianism lauds government monopoly power; while neoclassicism and Austrianism foster private monopoly power. Both are evil. At least in the case of government, you may feel that it is evil, but it is necessary [0]. So the more pragmatic and productive approach would be to think about how this monopoly power could be used to further prosperity and equity of the people. Today, the Left favors reforms to give govern…

I was speaking specifically of monopoly power, i.e., the power to raise or lower prices in the market. And no, neither government nor private firms should have this power. Monopoly power is an example of market failure. In a competitive market, all participants are price takers , i.e., passive agents incapable of changing the market price. In perfect competition, in every transaction, at least one party is better off…

[deleted]

Re: How America became uncompetitive and unequal

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are legal fictions. They exist through the power and authority of the State, their contracts are enacted and enforced through agents of the Courts. Corporations are manifestly not free to organize as they will. Is it economic freedom to have one choice for Internet broadband? For healthcare? Unregulated monopolies should supply us with food, water, power, and all other essential utilities/needs? Welcome…

> Corporations are legal fictions. They exist through the power and authority of the State, their contracts are enacted and enforced through agents of the Courts. When I enter a shop there are a few things I can not do. I can't steal, threaten the staff or set the place in fire for instance. That does not mean that the concept of a shop does not exist. Corporations are nothing but an association of people working tog…

You certainly can steal, threaten the staff, or set the place on fire. To the extent that shop and its people are recognized and protected by laws and government agencies such as the police, you'll likely face serious repercussions. But say the shop is liquidated in Chapter 7 proceedings by Bankruptcy Court, appeals exhausted, ownership of all assets transferred, the building condemned. The shop no longer exists, and in fact may be lawfully demolished.

You could setup a table in the middle of a busy intersection, put some items on it, and declare it to be a shop. That does't make it a shop (or for that matter yours).

What is "ownership" absent law? Is it something you can measure, like gravity, velocity, field strength, pH or temperature? Without the law, a manifestation of government, ownership is simply a belief (which is the antecedent of the law).

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