Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World • Hacker News Board

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#51

Post by jebblue » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:29 PM UTC

jqm wrote: post #35

Nrsolis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a horribly naive viewpoint. You've fallen into the trap of making a judgement of someone based on a popular understanding of a particular profession rather than any factual reality. And here are the facts: 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil. I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidn…

"I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidnapping of several hundred girls from a school." Yes. In Nigeria which is what... like the 5'th largest oil exporter in the world? So who funds these problems that then have to be solved by military invasion? I'm always suspicious.

What ... on earth is your point? That everyone who drives a car is responsible for those poor children? I pray for their safe return.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#52

Post by smacktoward » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:39 PM UTC

jebblue wrote: post #30

spodek wrote: post #4

It sounds like an impressive speech. I understand people share his values. The bravest and most meaningful action I saw from a military person was a college roommate who had returned from active duty as a Marine in the Gulf War. I don't know if his training was as intense as a SEAL's but he saw active duty and looked long and hard at his actions and those of this country and applied to become a conscientious objector…

The military, no military would function if each member went their own way and did their own thing. It's OK to not serve if you disagree with the leadership, just don't sign up. You can change the world by working to oust corrupt politicians, Republicans and Democrats and Libertarians. Understand though that freedom is not free, there's always someone waiting for the opportunity to take over your country and they don…

This issue is more complicated than you make it sound.

It's absolutely true that discipline and following orders are essential to the smooth functioning of a military force. However, that does not give soldiers an excuse to leave their conscience with their civilian clothes. The entire point of the Nuremberg trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials) was that "I was just following orders" is not a defense, when the orders in question are illegal or immoral. And illegal or immoral orders can be issued by American officers just the same as they were issued by German ones -- just ask the soldiers who served under Lieutenant William Calley in Vietnam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre). No nation's army has a monopoly on morality. So it's the responsibility of every soldier to balance the need for discipline with the need to ask conscientiously and with respect for human life and dignity.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#53

Post by jacquesm » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:39 PM UTC

jebblue wrote: post #47

jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

>> The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The problem is that the enemy wants to kill you, without brave men and women who serve voluntarily, you would not likely have the freedom to hold the idea that it's braver to not fight and give in and give up.

Which enemy is that?

Try harming (directly) one that is dear to me and we'll see how I feel about not fighting. Try sending me to some country halfway across the planet to further the agenda of a bunch of politicians that make sure they're safe themselves and as far away from harm as they could possibly be and I refuse to budge. Navy seals have given the ability to make that choice to their superiors.

Let's just leave it at that I've seen authority abused more often than that I've seen it be used for good and that I have a very strong distrust of the motives of those that govern in our name. Too many wars, too much manipulation, too many things in the news where the stories don't check out after the fact.

Would you like some yellowcake with that barrel of petroleum?

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#54

Post by dang » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:44 PM UTC

Nrsolis wrote: post #25

jacquesm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get behind people trained for the most part to kill other people. The bravest to me are those that refuse to be goaded into harming their fellow human beings at the behest of others. The line between 'brave seal' and 'tool' is a thin one.

This is a horribly naive viewpoint. You've fallen into the trap of making a judgement of someone based on a popular understanding of a particular profession rather than any factual reality. And here are the facts: 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil. I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidn…

I spent an afternoon at the Anne Frank house several years ago. I'm guessing you feel that she deserved NO protection whatsoever?

Please stop attacking other commenters personally. It's against the rules and weakens your argument.

"Guessing" something horrible about somebody is personally aggressive. There is a lot of other personally charged language in your posts as well. Please refrain from that. You have a good point—insinuation spoils it.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#55

Post by Nrsolis » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:45 PM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #42

Nrsolis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a horribly naive viewpoint. You've fallen into the trap of making a judgement of someone based on a popular understanding of a particular profession rather than any factual reality. And here are the facts: 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil. I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidn…

If that is horribly naive, so was Einstein: He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all t…

She was hunted and murdered by organized, trained killers THAT WERE SUPPORTED and FUNDED BY THE CIVILIANS.

FTFY.

Sorry Bub. Your hands aren't clean there.

And don't forget that Einstein wrote the letter to the FDR that kicked off the race to build the atomic weapon. Even HE was asking for the USG to do something that would squelch the evil of Nazi aggression.

If you believe that soldiers, airmen, sailors, and Marines are mindless drones, boy have you got it wrong.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#56

Post by Nrsolis » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:49 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #52

jebblue wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military, no military would function if each member went their own way and did their own thing. It's OK to not serve if you disagree with the leadership, just don't sign up. You can change the world by working to oust corrupt politicians, Republicans and Democrats and Libertarians. Understand though that freedom is not free, there's always someone waiting for the opportunity to take over your country and they don…

This issue is more complicated than you make it sound. It's absolutely true that discipline and following orders are essential to the smooth functioning of a military force. However, that does not give soldiers an excuse to leave their conscience with their civilian clothes. The entire point of the Nuremberg trials ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials ) was that "I was just following orders" is not a defen…

And that's why there are things called ROEs: Rules of Engagement.

A soldier just can't shoot anyone they see. There are very hard limits on who is considered a "combatant" and who is not. A big part of what gets soldiers and Marines on our side killed is ambiguity about who can be shot when they present a threat and who cannot.

If you do anything outside of the ROE it can be considered a war crime:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2383037/Clint-Loranc...

And yes, the USG DOES put its own soldiers in jail. Sometimes for life.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#57

Post by wolf550e » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:50 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #50

Nrsolis wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joshua, I'd like to add that I know people who have had direct contact with Adm. McRaven. That's the "UT guy" you spoke of. I feel like you could do him the courtesy of using his name and rank. And I'd suggest that MAYBE a person who leads highly-intelligent and committed individuals into dangerous situations where there is a significant chance that they might lose their lives knows something about "Leadership" that…

I thought soldiers had a little more self-respect than describing themselves as dumb tools used by others. No mind of their own, just following the civilians orders?

Soldiers choose to shoot or not to shoot, and risk getting shot, getting their buddy shot, getting court martialed and/or PTSD if they choose wrong. But soldiers do not choose whether or not their country invades another country.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#58

Post by PavlovsCat » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:52 PM UTC

jebblue wrote: post #41

coldtea wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An article praising soldiers and the "change" they bring IS political (in the general sense). It's just naively political, it doesn't even stop to consider the consquences of the actions it desribes, except on one side. Soldiers = heroes, or "just honest hardworking people doing a dangerous job", is political in itself. It's pro army, for one. Some people for some reason only consider anti-war statements to be politi…

The enemy is always at the gate, they care not that your heart bleeds for their children; they only care about making you and your children bleed so they can take what you have and destroy who you are and what your children could have become.

Nobody is pure evil, and someone who shallowly dismisses others as pure evil, is at least slightly evil. Of course, this is my personal definition of evil. However, I stand by it.

Traces of nobility, gentleness and courage persist in all people, do what we will to stamp out the trend. So, too, do those characteristics which are ugly. It is just unfortunate that in the clumsy hands of a cartoonist all traits become ridiculous, leading to a certain amount of self-conscious expostulation and the desire to join battle.

There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand. Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.

Forward!

-- Walt Kelly, foreword to "The Pogo Papers"

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#59

Post by jacquesm » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:53 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #39

jacquesm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a conscientious objector I've done plenty of thinking on the subject. My personal stance on this is that I and nobody else determines where and when the line into violence is crossed and that I will not let others determine what my hands are used for when it comes to matters of life and death. Words like 'sacrifice', 'pride' and so on try to put glory where there is none. Navy seals and their various colleagues fr…

You just took the words "sacrifice" and "pride" out of context and used them to rebut an argument I didn't make. And, obviously, I didn't make an argument that it was wrong to object to service in the military.

> our country (and yours) wouldn't need to ask people to sacrifice that part of their humanity in service to their countrymen.

Sacrifice in that sentence indicates that we are asking those people to give up their humanity in our service, as if that is something that makes it heroic. Besides, I didn't ask them, and never would.

> You might find that while SEALs are happy to speak proudly what they've learned in basic training, not so many of them speak happily about what war forces them to do during deployment.

SEALs speak proudly of their basic training because they glorify a thing that I abhor: violence.

In both cases I think that that exact use of those words is what I have a problem with.

I'm not asking anybody to sacrifice themselves for me and I don't think Navy SEAl basic training is something to 'be proud of'.

Firemen, nurses, ambulance drivers, doctors, single moms working hard to feed and educate their kids have reasons to be proud. Navy SEALs in my book at least not so much, they are for the most part underpaid mercenaries. Of course they are painted as heroes by the government, otherwise how would you get young and intelligent people to set aside their reservations about the aims to which they are generally used.

If every country would stick to using their 'defense' departments for what they are ostensibly named then the world would be a much better place.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#60

Post by speakmemory » Sun, May 25, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

Nrsolis wrote: post #43

spodek wrote: post #4

It sounds like an impressive speech. I understand people share his values. The bravest and most meaningful action I saw from a military person was a college roommate who had returned from active duty as a Marine in the Gulf War. I don't know if his training was as intense as a SEAL's but he saw active duty and looked long and hard at his actions and those of this country and applied to become a conscientious objector…

Joshua, I'd like to add that I know people who have had direct contact with Adm. McRaven. That's the "UT guy" you spoke of. I feel like you could do him the courtesy of using his name and rank. And I'd suggest that MAYBE a person who leads highly-intelligent and committed individuals into dangerous situations where there is a significant chance that they might lose their lives knows something about "Leadership" that…

I think this is an extremely disrespectful and kneejerk reaction to a very thoughtful comment on the parent article.

One factor that contributes to the readiness of the United States to go to war that escaped your analysis is that any critique, however mild, of the armed forces is met with furious moral indignation.