Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

Post by outworlder » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:43 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #41

outworlder wrote: post #24

So, instead of using the ubiquitous power grid, we'll need: - Hydrogen "manufacturing". Guess where most of it come from? Fossil fuels. If you use water, you require a lot of energy input. Actually, in either case you need energy input, so hydrogen is more like a battery, not an energy source. - Hydrogen distribution/storage. At the refinery, between that and the 'gas' stations, etc. Not all containers are suitable f…

What about range? Hydrogen might be less energy dense than gasoline, but what about compared to batteries? Range is the #1 crippling factor for EVs to most people I talk to.

Post by mikestew » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:45 PM UTC

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #31

Electric car with battery pros: * Can deliver full power instantly * Does not produce CO2 at time of energy release (clean cities) * Lesser moving parts Electric car with battery cons: * Range too small with current designs * No charging stations (infrastructure problem) * Battery needs to be replaced every several years * Requires lithium, which reserves are very limited on earth * Carbon tube based battery doesn't…

Post by dublinben » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:47 PM UTC

xionon wrote: post #38

cLeEOGPw wrote: post #31

Electric car with battery pros: * Can deliver full power instantly * Does not produce CO2 at time of energy release (clean cities) * Lesser moving parts Electric car with battery cons: * Range too small with current designs * No charging stations (infrastructure problem) * Battery needs to be replaced every several years * Requires lithium, which reserves are very limited on earth * Carbon tube based battery doesn't…

Gasoline is not actually explosive - the fumes are flammable, but not the liquid itself. Hydrogen is much more flammable, and will ignite from a much smaller spark than gasoline will. Cars catch fire in accidents all the time, it's not that hart to imagine that the problem might get worse if we switched to an even more flammable fuel.

Post by mikeash » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:48 PM UTC

eshvk wrote: post #13

dublinben wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…

> Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. The only reason for me to get an Electric Vehicle is the green factor. If instead of my car polluting the environment, there is an increase in say coal factories, not sure how that helps the environment. So there is a need for fuel cells.

Post by revelation » Tue, May 13, 2014, 8:03 PM UTC

makomk wrote: post #12

revelation wrote: post #7

The RAV4 ev is a pure compliance car. It's only sold in California, it's a 3rd party drivetrain and battery bolted onto the frame for a gas guzzler SUV. So of course it's a terrible product. The only thing it excels at is getting Toyota enough ZEV credits. They recently changed the credit scheme, so now Toyota is switching to that: http://insideevs.com/carb-zev-program-changes-tesla-takes-la...

Interesting - if I'm reading that correctly, Tesla's battery-swap technology substantially boosted the amount of ZEV credits they obtained and could resell by allowing them to claim "fast recharging", despite the facilities to actually swap batteries never actually being available to customers.