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Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

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Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#51

Post by edoloughlin »

ihsw wrote: post #27

Why stop at the slow lane? There is nothing preventing ISP gatekeepers from wholeheartedly denying access. Slowness is just the beginning -- the end-goal is making the internet into multiple competing walled gardens where users are treated as silos that require permission to access. The global reach of the internet is at risk here. Imagine if Netflix wasn't accessible to Comcast users from the beginning because they…

Imagine if Netflix wasn't accessible to Comcast users from the beginning because they wouldn't pay the toll. Would it have thrived and grown as quickly as it did, or would it have died in it's infancy?

If I was building a bandwidth-intensive startup in the US at the moment, I'd be seriously looking at using port-hopping p2p as my distribution mechanism with some randomisation of the payload to make profiling/identification as difficult as possible.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#52

Post by josephlord »

err4nt wrote: post #30
privong wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about something simpler - Make images load slowly using JS. I do like this idea. However, as one of the minority of people who have disabled js by default, I'd hope this could be done in a way that doesn't break websites.

I don't know how to say it without being blunt, but I mean no offense, I'm just curious. I've heard of this mythical type of user (no-JS) but never heard their side of the coin before. I dislike ad tracking, information culling, and I think that JavaScript underpins and makes possible many of the things I dislike about the modern web. We agree on that I'm sure. But so does a web browser. So does the operating system…

Edited to add summary

Summary

I generally browse the web to read things. I want a simple document reading environment with limited power over my computer and minimisation of who is informed of my activities particularly as they cross between different sites. Javascript is not needed and is in fact detrimental to these aims in the majority of cases.

--

I use NoScript so in many cases I enable scripts but in others I don't, it depends on the value of what I expect to see and to some extent on the trust in those the scripts are being loaded from.

Sometimes the page is broken although not fatally, most Washington Post links look broken but work fine if you scroll down to where the actual article is.

Some domains are whitelisted permanently but more often I will temporarily allow .

Reasons - Privacy and control

Some sites want me to load Javascript from dozens of different domains, many of which are advertisers and trackers. I don't want to be tracked and each script loaded could be reporting almost anything about the page I am viewing back to the associated domains.

Disabling Javascript disables most of the intrusive moving/audible adverts on the web and hopefully also much of the tracking and privacy invasion that goes along with them.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#53

Post by anthony_d »

err4nt wrote: post #30
privong wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about something simpler - Make images load slowly using JS. I do like this idea. However, as one of the minority of people who have disabled js by default, I'd hope this could be done in a way that doesn't break websites.

I don't know how to say it without being blunt, but I mean no offense, I'm just curious. I've heard of this mythical type of user (no-JS) but never heard their side of the coin before. I dislike ad tracking, information culling, and I think that JavaScript underpins and makes possible many of the things I dislike about the modern web. We agree on that I'm sure. But so does a web browser. So does the operating system…

I turn off Javascript because it tends to be poorly written and doesn't provide any value to me. I'm primarily interested in the information part of the internet, so those limits of CSS layout just don't matter to me.

Of course there is a difference between web applications and information sharing. I don't mind Javascript for an application that needs it but I tend to prefer non-web apps anyway.

It seems odd to me how much work goes into making a web page do things that don't need to be done.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#55

Post by mantrax5 »

This whole net neutrality debate is bullshit, and both Netflix and the telcos know it.

Let me lay it out for you:

---The ISPs---

ISPs want to advertise unlimited traffic, but don't want to raise the prices for all customers only to be able to sustain their Netflix users (which constitute their most bandwidth hungry users).

So ISPs want to hit Netflix for the cost of the extra traffic, Netflix will in turn hit their customers back, in effect these customers will be paying their ISPs for that extra traffic they're using in the form of higher Netflix fees.

However, the ISPs get to come with their hands clean, and keep advertising unlimited traffic (although they get customer-funded subsidies from their biggest traffic sources).

---Netflix---

They just want to lower their costs for intermediate parties and host CDN directly at every big ISP.

But they don't want to pay a lot (or anything about it), so they play the Net neutrality card in attempt to pressure the ISPs into getting into unprofitable for them arrangements.

...

So, did you notice me talking about net neutrality, fast lanes, slow lanes and so on? No. Because it's all bullshit demagoguery to cover up the basic issues of "who pays for that extra traffic":

- The ISP customers don't want to pay for it (they want unmetered traffic).

- The ISPs don't want to pay for it.

- Netflix doesn't want to pay for it.

But someone will have to, eventually. Customers will have to pay for the traffic they use, and Netflix will have to pay for their ISP CDN servers (as they're starting to, despite the whining).

And in the end none of those three parties: ISP, Netflix, customers, are innocent. So save me the righteousness, all right?

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#56

Post by [deleted] »

bitJericho wrote: post #23
fooqux wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Much more effective would be for operators to ban ISPs. I heartily disagree with this approach. Not only does it harken back to the days of Prodigy, AOL, CompuServe and the like where each service had its own content, but it's very anti-internet. >Make users want to switch That's great if there are alternatives to switch to. Yes, I could technically switch to dialup. It is technically internet. It's not going to all…

> I heartily disagree with this approach. Not only does it harken back to the days of Prodigy, AOL, CompuServe and the like where each service had its own content, but it's very anti-internet. Anti-internet to ban an ISP that is trying to decimate the internet? How does that logically make any sense?

[deleted]

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#57

Post by edoloughlin »

addisonj wrote: post #6

How about something simpler - Make images load slowly using JS. A ton of popular consumer sites - facebook, instagram, reddit/imgur are hugely image based. A few lines of JS to make them slowly load (perhaps PNG artifacts for bonus points) and you could very effectively get the point across all while quickly serving a nice large banner. Offtopic: As a google fiber customer myself, his mention of not remembering the u…

How about something simpler - Make images load slowly using JS.

Or how about just using a webfont? I already get a reminder of what the 'slow lane' was like when I hit a site that uses one - it does layout so I can see where the text will eventually go and then I get to wait 5 seconds for it to load and do whatever else it needs to do with its fonts.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#58

Post by logfromblammo »

err4nt wrote: post #30
privong wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about something simpler - Make images load slowly using JS. I do like this idea. However, as one of the minority of people who have disabled js by default, I'd hope this could be done in a way that doesn't break websites.

I don't know how to say it without being blunt, but I mean no offense, I'm just curious. I've heard of this mythical type of user (no-JS) but never heard their side of the coin before. I dislike ad tracking, information culling, and I think that JavaScript underpins and makes possible many of the things I dislike about the modern web. We agree on that I'm sure. But so does a web browser. So does the operating system…

All of the web is broken by default, because it is filled with black-hats trying to collect your personally-identifiable information and steal your passwords.

If your web page doesn't work without javascript, you are no longer publishing to the entire world. You are publishing to the subset of everybody who will trust a complete stranger to execute unknown code locally on their own computer--otherwise known as the gullible and the naive.

While it is true that most website authors will not abuse that trust, they may not be entirely responsible for all elements served to visitors, as there may be a compromised ad server, or the website itself might have been subverted without the author's knowledge.

I will often at least temporarily allow scripts to run from the domain I am currently visiting, but if a page is serving scripts from 30 different domains, I may spend some time researching those domains, or simply forget about the page and go elsewhere.

I want my computer to serve my desires, not those of strangers. And I go to the web for information, not fancy layouts.

Also, I sometimes browse over a SSH shell with links, a text-mode browser, and javascript support in that has been suspended indefinitely. Some browsers are simply incapable of rendering images or executing script. You shouldn't ever be tying the core functionality of your website to a user interface, any more than you should make the business logic of software dependant on the GUI.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#60

Post by ibmthrowaway218 »

err4nt wrote: post #30
privong wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about something simpler - Make images load slowly using JS. I do like this idea. However, as one of the minority of people who have disabled js by default, I'd hope this could be done in a way that doesn't break websites.

I don't know how to say it without being blunt, but I mean no offense, I'm just curious. I've heard of this mythical type of user (no-JS) but never heard their side of the coin before. I dislike ad tracking, information culling, and I think that JavaScript underpins and makes possible many of the things I dislike about the modern web. We agree on that I'm sure. But so does a web browser. So does the operating system…

I don't think you get exactly what he meant by "js disabled by default".

I use No-Script and whitelist sites as required, it's just a click or two, but for any new site I go to JavaScript is disabled.

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