It's Different for Girls • Hacker News Board

Re: It's Different for Girls

#51

Post by ForHackernews » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:09 PM UTC

thenmar wrote: post #39

britta wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training worksh…

I'm curious about how controversial this post seems. It has been bouncing back and forth from light gray to black. Is it that people disagree with educating others? That they have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "patriarchy" and dismiss anyone who uses it? That they idea of "allies training" is somehow repulsive and unfair?

I generally agree with the parent and I upvoted it, but I did so in spite of having a visceral negative reaction to buzzwords like "allies" (implies that I'm somehow taking a risk/taking sides in a war) and "patriarchy" (vague and ill-defined to the point of meaninglessness).

Re: It's Different for Girls

#52

Post by webmaven » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:09 PM UTC

aaronem wrote: post #31

skannamalai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is j…

> Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Does it matter?

Yes. If you're speaking from able-bodied, neurotypical, straight, cis, white, male privilege, your opinion on how hurtful 'trolling' is to people who don't share your privilege carries no weight.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#53

Post by throwwwaya2 » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:09 PM UTC

I would love to write "It’s Different for Boys", not as a rebuttal, but to explain how two-sided this problem is from a man's perspective.

That sexual harassment and the weirdly dysfunctional sexual culture of business is perpetuated on men as well as women.

I arrived on the scene in the Bay Area start-up culture ~5 years ago from a very different industry / cultural perspective.

I was in LOVE with the idea of the Bay Area tech-start-up culture - it's incredibly magnetic.

Within a month I'd closed a major deal with a new client - they'd just raised tens-of-millions in venture money from prominent VCs, the CEO was very visible in the SF bay start-up culture, etc.

I was living the dream - everything in their office was just as I imagined, the people were all hip and fresh and liberal-earthy-but-wise-and-techie just as I'd hoped.

Then the work day ended and I was invited out to drinks to celebrate our deal with the "boys" from the office.

Drinks led to more drinks, led to a strip club, led to the CEO literally going home with a hooker (and he was dating another prominent valley founder at the time no less).

And nobody batted an eye.

Like the author I don't quite know how to wind this up other than to say this is a two way street.

And the more time I spend with rich and powerful SV men, the more I see a "women as toys" culture perpetuated.

Yes, we're all human susceptible to our very human flaws and needs, but it's insane how completely acceptable sexualized behavior is behind the scenes.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#54

Post by abracar » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:09 PM UTC

ProAm wrote: post #24

Not that it ties directly to this article but Ive always found the quote "Judge people by their intentions, not by their actions" to help me quite a bit in the professional world. People can often be frustrating, counter-productive, or as in the case of this article sexist, but sometimes they don't mean to be. When you have to deal with others try and look at what they were intending to do not necessarily the results…

Right - I also find it helpful to judge them for their actions in general, and not just for one stupid thing they may say.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#55

Post by rfrey » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:11 PM UTC

Judging others by their intentions seems like good advice in general, not just for offensive speech.

Goodness knows I've been judging myself by intention more than deed for over 40 years. It's probably a courtesy I could extend to others more often.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#56

Post by jacquesm » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:11 PM UTC

Incredibly classy of her to not name & shame the bad guys but to accent the good ones. Kudos. Also, the behavior of some of those guys is absolutely shocking, I'm sorry to say I never suspected it to be this bad at that level. Call me naive.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#57

Post by Mz » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:11 PM UTC

abracar wrote: post #54

ProAm wrote: post #24

Not that it ties directly to this article but Ive always found the quote "Judge people by their intentions, not by their actions" to help me quite a bit in the professional world. People can often be frustrating, counter-productive, or as in the case of this article sexist, but sometimes they don't mean to be. When you have to deal with others try and look at what they were intending to do not necessarily the results…

Right - I also find it helpful to judge them for their actions in general, and not just for one stupid thing they may say.

"Believe your eyes over your ears," so to speak. It's a good rule of thumb.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#58

Post by zorpner » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:12 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #44

britta wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training worksh…

Sorry, but I find Shanley's approach to framing this issue completely the opposite of the OP here. The OP sees the good in good men and lifts them up. The closing point about the joke she shared with her colleagues underlines it: there are people who are unable to laugh off a "dick in your hand" joke regardless of context and who it comes from. Not because of a lack of sense of humor, but because any such joke will b…

This is not a productive avenue for making progress IMHO.

As Roizen points out in her article, while she believes that things have improved, she's still often the only woman in the room. Other women, like Shanley Kane, believe that working within the system and ignoring or brushing off sexist behavior when it's experienced merely propagates the (unacceptable) status quo. They're different ways of looking at the problem from people who actually experiencing it, and they're both valid perspectives. Listening to the perspectives of women and trying to understand where they're coming from, even if it makes you uncomfortable, is literally the first step towards making progress.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#59

Post by abracar » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:13 PM UTC

throwwwaya2 wrote: post #53

I would love to write "It’s Different for Boys", not as a rebuttal, but to explain how two-sided this problem is from a man's perspective. That sexual harassment and the weirdly dysfunctional sexual culture of business is perpetuated on men as well as women. I arrived on the scene in the Bay Area start-up culture ~5 years ago from a very different industry / cultural perspective. I was in LOVE with the idea of the Ba…

I don't see how that would be a rebuttal, but from what you say it could be interesting to read.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#60

Post by throwwwaya2 » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:13 PM UTC

abracar wrote: post #59

throwwwaya2 wrote: post #53

I would love to write "It’s Different for Boys", not as a rebuttal, but to explain how two-sided this problem is from a man's perspective. That sexual harassment and the weirdly dysfunctional sexual culture of business is perpetuated on men as well as women. I arrived on the scene in the Bay Area start-up culture ~5 years ago from a very different industry / cultural perspective. I was in LOVE with the idea of the Ba…

I don't see how that would be a rebuttal, but from what you say it could be interesting to read.

Good point, edited my first sentence.