Using quotas is valid if there is quota bias to start with. So if men are more domininant in the tech industry because they are men, then using quotas will actually increase the merocrity. The problem is how do you calculate the true talent of people?
My favorite "proof" of this comes from the book Soccernomics where they could show that black fotball (soccer for you americans) players where discriminated, because with all other equal the higher ratio of black players in a team would increase the succes of the team.
I’m a Man and I Write Code
51–60 of 66 posts
Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code
#52There are several definitions of sexism, one is essentially "taking someone's sex or gender into account when making a decision". This appears to be the definition the author is using by calling quotas "sexist". It's a very simple, easy to understand, easy to identify definition. It also means that in many cases (e.g. choosing who shoul speak at a tech conference), men can be the victims of sexism. There's another de…
> This definition is harder for some people to accept because it means that you need to look at yourself and think about what power imbalances you might be benefiting from, and it means you can't just do s/female/male/g and make it just as sexist.
I think it's more Darwinian than that. No one comes to the realization one day that they benefit from institutional power dynamics and then sets out to change the system to their own detriment. The reason men want more women in technology is not that they're worried about women -- not as a first class objective. It's rather that they believe they (and the society they live in) will benefit from more gender diversity in the industry. The fact that this will also produce benefits for women is a happy harmony because it means we don't have to fight about it.
Which is why the "reinforces institutionalized power structure" definition is such a loser. It frames the issue as battle of the sexes rather than everyone cooperating to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. So then instead of everyone finding a way to help women without hurting men, you create two sides where one is trying to help women by hurting men and the other starts throwing rocks from the top of the mountain because they don't want to be hurt. Which doesn't benefit anybody.
Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
The author says that these organizations give the message that "These people are different from the majority so we need to treat them differently." Well, yes. What's wrong with that? The author doesn't explain. I think it's pretty obvious - he thinks that those groups are reinforcing the idea that they're trying to dispel. From his POV, if you don't want people treated as different, it makes no sense for you to do th…
In that case I think he's wrong. Being "different" and being "less than" are two different things, but it sounds like he's equating them, as if by going out of your way to help under-represented groups you're implying that they're under-represented because they're inferior. To clarify what I meant in my earlier post: Yes, they are different, by definition - one group is the majority, the others are minorities. That d…
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Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code
#54I'm on the board of the group he is talking about. I'd like to share my thoughts that I sent to the group after the 1:1 proposal. I did some light editing for clarity and to redact names. ---------------------------- Dear , No, because then we'll be judging speakers on a trait that has nothing to do with their coding or presentation skills. I'm not going discriminate against a male simply because he is a male for the…
Also, FTR, I would estimate that we typically have 2-3 female speakers at each event without making an effort at singling out women to present.
Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code
#55Wow, this article is really misinformed.
> What does having a program like ... Girls Who Code, Black Girls Code, etc… accomplish? The short answer; very little if anything. In fact, I believe groups like this have the potential actually do more harm than good.
> IMO, one place to make the biggest impact on diversity in our field is the next generation of technologists. Kids.
What the heck does he think organizations like Black Girls Code are trying to do? Hint: They're helping make sure tomorrow's generation of technologists includes more women, by teaching girls today.
Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code
#56The author embraces the fallacy that there are clear and objective "best" people to hire for a job or to invite to speak at a conference. Very rarely that may be the case, but in general that is a false idea, and a poisonous one. It's an excuse for being lazy, and it continues the cycle of discrimination that keeps gender ratios so wildly skewed.
There's value in the perspective from the outside, there's value in being challenged by new ideas, there's value in developing the next generation of top speakers and workers, there's value in taking a risk on someone new, there's value in working on new problems with people who've lived a different life than you have.
In terms of conference speakers in particular, you send a message to your audience with your choice of speakers and panelists. You are saying "this is who we are". And if no one on the stage looks like me, I might start to think I'm not welcome as an audience member either.
Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code
#57There are several definitions of sexism, one is essentially "taking someone's sex or gender into account when making a decision". This appears to be the definition the author is using by calling quotas "sexist". It's a very simple, easy to understand, easy to identify definition. It also means that in many cases (e.g. choosing who shoul speak at a tech conference), men can be the victims of sexism. There's another de…
In general I agree with what you're saying and I think that your second definition of sexism is very insightful and something everybody should consider and think about (even if they ultimately find they cannot support this definition). However, I would like to point out that whether being "male" makes you play life on easier difficulty than "female" depends to a large extent to how you weight different outcomes of th…
> "While it's probably still true that being male makes it easier to earn more money (especially now, when all the geeky, previously unpopular, mostly male programmers cashed in), but it also makes it easier to be homeless and to die sooner"
Oh sure. My whole point is "It's complicated".
w.r.t. to suicide I think part of that is societal gender roles. We tell 5 year old boys to stop crying because "big boys don't cry", then we wonder why 20 year old men kill themselves rather than seek mental health.
"Institutional power imbalances" is one bad sexist thing. "Gender roles" (boys don't cry, women shouldn't do maths) are another bad sexist thing. It's all complicated and connected.
Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code
#58> By creating anti-diverse groups like [Women Who Code, PyLadies, Girls Who Code, Black Girls Code], people are literally saying “This group of people are different than the majority, so we need to do special things for them. Treat them differently. They’re special.”
Though this was a small part of the post, I believe this is one of the most flawed concepts he has. Having founded a group for black programmers in NYC, I can tell you, we're not asking for special things, nor have any of the women I've encountered from the other groups.
My group, the Black Techies, was founded so that we could have a place free of crap like cultural biases, or people asking "why are the black people sitting together at lunch", or sexist and racist posts that devalue our worth.
The author's version of "true diversity" is one where anyone who is not a white male assimilates into a white male culture of software development.
His vision is one where white males don't have to change; where acceptable groups are blessed; where we can't do anything about the adults in the field, we need to focus on the children and in 20 years, __maybe__ we will look up and see that it worked.
This vision is one that perpetuates the status quo.
For myself, and I would posit the other founders of similar groups, the status quo is unacceptable. And we actively fight, on our own terms, for our own interests about the best way forward. Who knows best about how to hire more "diverse" programmers than those same "diverse" programmers?
Is a "1:1" speaker ratio the right thing? Is it going to produce results? Is it sustainable?
Who knows.
But, it is an active and bold idea. It's taking a stand. It's does a hell of a lot more for the conversation than silently removing a "no girls allowed" sign from the boys club.
Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code
#59Just an idea. If you want to write a serious article on the subject of women in tech, no matter what your views are, you're probably better off not putting a "no girls allowed" graphic on top, no matter how "funny" or "ironic" you may think it is.
So, it's alright to actually run "no boys allowed" schools, dinners and programs in tech, but it's not OK to ironically put a "no girls allowed" image in a blog post? Do you realize that this double standard is harmful for everyone?
Yes it's alright. Because it's not sexist. (cf a common definition of sexism: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7660512 )
Re: I’m a Man and I Write Code
#60Quotas don't necessarily fix things _now_ -- they create a new normal for the next generation.
The ends don't justify the means: having a sexist practice to combat sexism is using the wrong means.
Quotas like this aren't sexist https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7660512