Live data from Hacker News

How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

jeffknupp.com

51–60 of 219 posts

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#51

"If you are a developer of moderately sized software, you need a deployment system in place. Quick, what are the benefits and drawbacks of the following such systems: Puppet, Chef, Salt, Ansible, Vagrant, Docker. Now implement your deployment solution! Did you even realize which systems had no business being in that list?" I'm not understanding this, you can deploy with Puppet, Chef, Salt, Ansible, Vagrant and Docker…

I hope I'm not actually expected to know what any of those is.

If you're working or wanting to work as a Devops engineer or as a full stack engineer then you might want a new attitude about new stuff.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#52

"If you are a developer of moderately sized software, you need a deployment system in place. Quick, what are the benefits and drawbacks of the following such systems: Puppet, Chef, Salt, Ansible, Vagrant, Docker. Now implement your deployment solution! Did you even realize which systems had no business being in that list?" I'm not understanding this, you can deploy with Puppet, Chef, Salt, Ansible, Vagrant and Docker…

While you are right you can deploy with any of those, Vagrant and Docker are virtualized containers, the other ones are "configuration management" tools, I guess that's what the OP meant.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#53

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

Ya, it would have been better if the title reflected the true target of the rant [Full Stack Developers]. However, I kind of think this reflects a local culture issue and not really a broad one.

Like, I'm a full stack developer [e.g. I provision my own prod boxes, write the services that run on them] at my $DAY_JOB. I'm not seeing that as a bad thing unless it gets out of hand and I'm doing that for more than a small cluster of backend services.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#54

"If you are a developer of moderately sized software, you need a deployment system in place. Quick, what are the benefits and drawbacks of the following such systems: Puppet, Chef, Salt, Ansible, Vagrant, Docker. Now implement your deployment solution! Did you even realize which systems had no business being in that list?" I'm not understanding this, you can deploy with Puppet, Chef, Salt, Ansible, Vagrant and Docker…

I hope I'm not actually expected to know what any of those is.

It would take about an hour to be conversant in all of them.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#55

From my point of view, this is due to lack of tech education. There just are not enough people graduating/learning the technical skills necessary for medium to large size software companies to employ. I am a manager/developer/architect at a relatively large software company, and we have to task our developers with devops-type tasks constantly. Not because we want our developers spending time outside of coding, but be…

>>> Not because we want our developers spending time outside of coding, but because for lack of ability to hire the competency needed.

This is known as the "odd man out" syndrome. I currently work in a medium sized company who are doing a huge ERP switch over. I'm a front-end developer by trade, but know .Net as well. One part of the contract stated our company needed to have X amount of company resources (people) to have on the project.

Guess who the "odd man out" was? Yup, that's me. The last three months, I think I've written 10 lines of javascript, a dozen or so .Net classes and spent the remainder learning JDE development on the fly. Now you have to ask yourself, is there something beneficial to me learning JDE? Nope, not even close. It's on the complete other end of the spectrum in terms of skills. The only reason I'm doing what I'm doing is because of what you said - the company had neither the desire or want to hire a JDE Developer. They just thought they'd throw me in the mix since I have "developer" in my job title.

The downside is I hate my job now and am actively looking to get out of here. They told me recently after the release, I'll be one of the ongoing "resources" to help manage post-release defects.

So I agree on your last point as well. It's not fair and unfortunately, it's a no win situation for the developers. If I do a shitty job as a JDE developer, they get pissed and might evenutally fire me. If I do a good job, then I get tasked with all kinds of stuff I have neither the want or desire to do.

Six months in and I hate working in JDE but all the contractors think after two weeks I should be a pro with it since I'm a "developer".

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#56

Related: I'm curious if 'full-stack' devs find themselves making more money than 'half-stack' devs. After all, you're doing more as part of your job, and you're a chimera. If not, then aren't you being taken advantage of?

I'd slay a chimera before I'd pay a chimera.

I'm curious to know how specialists negotiate for pay or write a resume if that isn't their specialty.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#57
The role of DevOps is to help developers work more efficiently, not give developers more work to do. An example of this could be a TFS administrator who works on TFS build template changes and configuration to make the build and deploy process as automated as possible. Nothing to do with being a startup, or trying to get more work done with fewer people.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#59
post #34

You can't really draw a hard line between administration and development, in the end you are just building a system and the more you know about it from all angles the better design decisions you can make and the easier it is to fix issues. I diagnosed a few problems over the years that arose as apparent issues with a web application but that I gradually narrowed down to things like network issues, or kernel bugs, or…

Thanks for voicing this so well, this has been my experience as well and it's probably safe to say our systems will continue to evolve to be more complex as our tools which enable us to deal with the complexities co-evolve. Having a full picture of things will stay a requirement.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#60
post #16
post #11

I think the idea is not necessarily to have developers run production systems, but they still should know what production looks like and at least have basic knowledge on how to configure all of the moving parts of the system. Having developers be 'full stack' imho reduces the amount of "works on my machine". How would a developer test the software he/she is developing on if she can't at least get close to a productio…

Jesus. Such people exist and call themselves developers? Ah man.

They're everywhere, dogg.
Post reply on HN