Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#51

Post by anologwintermut » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:03 AM UTC

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

Sadly, the segregation between CAN buses is not nearly as good as you would think. ONSTAR, for example, sits on the drive critical bus (and is exploitable). Of course, this is not on a Tesla, but still.

http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#52

Post by nemo1618 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:11 AM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #50

Onto more important matters, does anyone know the track being played? The title is 'All the things she said', which originally was a #1 Top 40 song by the Russian pop group 'Tatu'. However the picture is definitely not the Russian duo. Is this a German cover version of some sort?

I tried reverse image searching the photo, but got nothing.

However, a simple YouTube search for the song name turned up a bunch of cover versions. This one matches the length shown (4:17): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tytPcvyJASc

The band, Simple Plan, also appears to have five members, which is pretty strong supporting evidence. Strangely, I couldn't find the exact image shown in the Tesla photo.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#53

Post by nacs » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:21 AM UTC

evv wrote: post #48

fleitz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now... imagine you have a low tech car facing an attacker armed with a pair of side cutters. First, locate the hood, second, use the release to pop it. Locate the master cylinder, and the hose running to the engine, cut it. Now the brakes don't work very well. Locate the hose not running to the engine, cut that, now the brakes don't work at all. Imagine that any person strong enough to operate side cutters can hack i…

Seriously? You're illustrating the point here. On low tech cars, an attacker has to hack the cars one-at-a-time. They could endanger one car load of people with each "job". With high-tech cars, an attacker could hack every car of the same model. With thousands of Teslas on the road, I think it merits a higher concern than somebody with side cutters. I thought it was obvious. Next time I'll let it go unsaid..

It's a wired-ethernet network not Wifi.

The attacker would still need physical access like the low-tech attacker to network and update software on the Tesla.

Also, the brake line could be cut in seconds whereas 'jailbreaking' and then flashing the drive control software would take ages in comparison.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#54

Post by jotm » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:22 AM UTC

j-g-faustus wrote: post #49

jnbiche wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, as someone who grew up "hacking" on my car (i.e., on the engine) this attitude is pretty amazing. What a dangerous, mysterious thing a car must seem to you.

It's different in a number of ways: Suppose it's not you hacking your car, it's an enemy that want you dead. So they disable the brakes. Or perhaps it's possible for an attacker to disable the brakes only when you're braking hard and have a speed above 100 km/h (60 mph). Or suppose a neighborhood kid is angry at you, have figured out how to hack the system, but haven't yet figured out the difference between "that'll…

Cutting the brake lines or using a kitchen knife (or a gun bought off Craigslist in the US) to kill the person you hate works just as well and is much simpler.

I personally would like to see various "hacks" adjusting the suspension, brakes, spark timings and other things for a better ride in certain conditions (racing, drifting, mountain roads, etc).

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#55

Post by mikepurvis » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:27 AM UTC

Dwolb wrote: post #47

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

Just a note, automotive Ethernet PHYs exist [1] and there is some interest in real-time Ethernet applications (piggy-backing on an original audio use case, AVB) [2]. [1] http://www.broadcom.com/products/Physical-Layer/BroadR-Reach... [2] http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1315425

There's also EtherCAT, which has been around for a while and has realtime and safety guarantees.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#56

Post by scotty79 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:30 AM UTC

So, inspecting a product you own is industrial espionage now?

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#57

Post by Vik1ng » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:32 AM UTC

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

I'm not expert on this, but I'm pretty sure the IT guys in our Formula Student Team use a Ethernet cable to connect their laptop to the Autobox and then the Box runs the CAN signals.

http://www.dspace.com/de/gmb/home/products/newprod/microauto... (Table: Host-Interface = Ethernet)

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#58

Post by mschuster91 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:45 AM UTC

Gnewt wrote: post #32

mschuster91 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firewall? The CAN bus interfacing with the core vehicle components assumes no access controls or anything. Any device connected to it is inherently trustable, no questions asked.

I think the commenter you replied to was inferring that the whole CAN bus was not accessible via the Ethernet network.

Get ssh access to the box connected to the CAN bus and boom, you have access.

There must be at least one of those connected because Tesla is able to remote-unlock your vehicle.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#59

Post by mschuster91 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:47 AM UTC

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

You can be disappointed - you can unlock the vehicle from your app, thus 0wning/jailbreaking that box will give you CAN-bus access.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#60

Post by dm2 » Sat, Apr 05, 2014, 2:49 AM UTC

hamiltonkibbe wrote: post #40

dm2 wrote: post #13

Can Tesla detect if settings or the files for one of their cars are modified? I would like an option to contact home base to verify that all files and configurations in my car are exactly like their suppose to be, else either disable the car or download the correct software. Maybe a way to enable a developer mode which can only be used on a non-public road. I just can't imagine modifying an electric vehicles computer…

I could certainly see people modifying cotor controller settings. Changing hard RPM limits, or tuning PID controller gains for extra milliseconds on the track.

I doubt there is too much that can be done to increase the performance. Removing seats seems like it would be more effective than messing with RPM limits.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2...

I just don't think it's worth compromising safety and implementing more systems (to regular where the modified cars are driven) to satisfy the small percentage of people who want to use a Model S as a serious track car.

It's already pretty competitive on the track https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCdP6sMN9k

One wreck from a modified Model S would be disastrous for Tesla, it's just not worth it at this point in my opinion.