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Do physicists really believe in true randomness?

askamathematician.com

51–58 of 58 posts

Re: Do physicists really believe in true randomness?

#51
Here's how I like to think of this (I have made some huge simplifications by the way):

Basically, you have two entangled photons that travel in opposite directions. Let's say one heads toward New York and the other heads toward California. The particles arrive at their destination at the same time.

Each experimenter has a little filter (called a polarizer) that he can rotate, and each experimenter rotates his filter to whatever angle he wants the instant before the photon strikes it. Each experimenter then measures whether the photon passed through his filter or got absorbed.

Because each experimenter rotates his filter at the last possible instant before the photon strikes it, there's no way that the guy in New York could know what angle the guy in California chose, because to know this would require that information to travel faster than the speed of light.

Now let's ask the question: what is the probability that both photons had the same measurement? (That is, what is the probability that either both photons passed through the filter or both photons were absorbed). From looking at data from multiple runs of this experiment, it turns out this probability is a function of both filter angles.

But since nothing can travel faster than light, how is it possible that the probability is a function of two independently chosen angles? Well the simplest way this can happen is something like P = f(θ1)g(θ2). You can see here that the total probability is a separable function. In other words, the total probability can be computed using functions of two separate angles. It would be like computing the probability that two separate baseball players both hit the ball; you don't need any faster than light information transfer to figure this out.

However, in actual experiments, it turns out that P = f(θ1, θ2), and this function is not separable. What this means is the total probability is a function of both angles together -- you can't compute independent probabilities and combine them.

What does this mean? It means that somehow each filter "knew" the angle the other filter was rotated to, instantly. So reality is "non-local". BUT there's another option if you don't like that: the universe "knew" in advance what angles the experimenters would choose, and let each photon know this before they separated. This would give the correct experimental results, and you wouldn't have to give up locality. This is called superdeterminism, and it hasn't been ruled out yet, but let's be honest: is the universe really working that hard to conspire against us? (At least one Nobel-prize holding physicist thinks so).

EDIT: Also, why did this article instantly drop like 40 spots on HN? Is it because I shouldn't post comments on articles I submit? (I didn't write the original article by the way.) It's kind of annoying to spend twenty minutes writing a comment that nobody's going to see.

Re: Do physicists really believe in true randomness?

#52
post #19

I love the idea of true randomness because it seems, to my uninformed mind, to allow us the possibility of free will. Without true randomness, while we may enjoy the illusion of free will, our decisions are ultimately left to deterministic hidden variables. That makes me sad. But given true randomness, we may in fact have some mechanism whereby we are truly autonomous. How that might work is way beyond me and probabl…

Roger Penrose has been making a similar argument for some time now. He argues that consciousness must be a quantum phenomenon and that it takes place in microtubules in neurons. It's an interesting idea, but has been met with a lot of skepticism because the structures are too large to really exhibit any quantum effects. But if you're interested in reading more, here's the Wikipedia article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR

Re: Do physicists really believe in true randomness?

#53
post #19

I love the idea of true randomness because it seems, to my uninformed mind, to allow us the possibility of free will. Without true randomness, while we may enjoy the illusion of free will, our decisions are ultimately left to deterministic hidden variables. That makes me sad. But given true randomness, we may in fact have some mechanism whereby we are truly autonomous. How that might work is way beyond me and probabl…

I'm not sure random will is equivalent to free will. Is a choice still a choice if it's made randomly? Couldn't you say that the photon in the experiment has free will then? What's the difference?

>I'm not sure random will is equivalent to free will. It's not per se, but it's kind of an analogue -- in that both are escapes from determinism.

Something random can be seen as an event that has no causual expanation (and thus cannot be predicted by studying the previous state of the system). But there still must be an agent, bringing the random outcome into the universe. In the same manner, free will too can be thought of as a event that has no causual explanation.

In this case, the difficult question is how a "free will" based decision relates to the person making it (if it's a product of his memories then it's deterministic, and thus not free).

One way to solve this might be to think of the persons' decision making process as a "random number generator". So, the output is deterministic (the same for the same state of memories, like with a programmatic RNG), but with a unique seed for this person (the state of memories itself), and a unique RNG algorithm (the wiring of his brain).

In this case, unlike calculating a dice result given dimensions, weight, power of throw, wind conditions, etc, nothing can produce the same output as the free will person without going through the whole process (a total simulation).

Re: Do physicists really believe in true randomness?

#54

This article completely misses the point. You can never disprove hidden variable theories in a stochastic system, because hidden variable theories make the exact same predictions as 'true random' theories - the difference is only philosophical. What you can disprove are local hidden variable theories, which were somewhat popular (and favored by Einstein, for example) prior to Bell's thought experiment being empirical…

My understanding is that Bell's inequality is a little more devastating for hidden variable theories. To make hidden variable theories work, you don't just need spooky action at a distance: you need that spooky action to travel faster than light.

Re: Do physicists really believe in true randomness?

#56

Can someone explain this a bit better? As far as I can tell, the argument is basically "these particle effects should be predictable. I can't predict them, therefore they're impossible to predict". That sounds like nonsense to me... And I don't understand the cos equation. The argument seems to assume that the experiment is perfectly controlled, and given that we're still figuring out quantum effects, this seems to b…

You can choose to believe what you want, but understand that your belief is not in line with the last 100+ years of modern physics.

Re: Do physicists really believe in true randomness?

#57
post #19

I love the idea of true randomness because it seems, to my uninformed mind, to allow us the possibility of free will. Without true randomness, while we may enjoy the illusion of free will, our decisions are ultimately left to deterministic hidden variables. That makes me sad. But given true randomness, we may in fact have some mechanism whereby we are truly autonomous. How that might work is way beyond me and probabl…

I've never been able to get my head around the idea of free will. Maybe it's because in lacking even a rudamentary background in philosophy.

I think people mean they make decisions. Doesn't that mean randomness robs you of free will? The you (whatever that is) isn't making decisions, chance is.

If it's you making decisions, wouldn't those decisions have to depend on you and the situation, which means it's entirely deterministic? If I know you and I know the situation, I could predict your decision?

Re: Do physicists really believe in true randomness?

#58

The difficulty with mathematical randomness (versus unpredictability) in physics is that you would not expect the Laws of Thermodynamics to exist in a universe governed by the former. Some literature on algorithmic information theory touches on this. Consequently, if local determinism is not plausible (Bell) and randomness is not plausible (Kolmogorov et al), that leaves non-local determinism as the most sensible ass…

What about many-worlds? It appears randomly from the inside but actually isn't.
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